The Billionaire Who Wants Society to "Adjust" to Tech Dystopia Using Psychedelics

The crew does a deep dive on billionaire investor Christian Angermayer's psychedelic origin stories, dystopian visions for the future, and views on dosing the water and extraterrestrials.

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Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically from YouTube's captions, then cleaned up by removing filler words, repeated words and background sounds. It may still contain errors.

[00:00] You wrote a lot about Christian in your paper Testrial Hallucinations and some of his views for how psychedelics might be used in the future. Yeah. Well, I was really interested in how Ingram Meer amongst the billionaire class tends to say more than some of the others the quiet part out loud. In particular, he was describing his interest in using psychedelics as a kind of new opium for the masses to prevent the possibility of a popular uprising against a the world that the elites were building. And he openly identified as being amongst the builders and saying, you know, it's not good for mental health. the world that we're building like the some somewhere I think the majority of people feels that the world is going in a direction which a doesn't make sense for them so they can't understand a lot of things anymore and B they subconsciously and that's even worse know there might be no place for them in the world let's

[01:01] Say we the tech elite is building and so using psychedelics to try to prevent a popular revolution essentially. Mike's joining us and so is Nishay to discuss some recent clips from Christian Anger Meyer who like I said up top was recently on the New York Times opinion podcast with Ross Dowit and on a podcast from the company 50 years. They've been putting out these blogs called progress with kind of like progress leaders in the AI space and technology space and stuff. And he did this interview with a guy named D. Scott Phoenix who was an AI company founder.

[01:48] I've clipped some bits from both of these interviews that I think are illustrative of Christian Anger Meyer. I thought we could kind of discuss three themes that I was seeing come up through these that are relevant to us. We had previously discussed Christian Anger Meyer as the founder of the enhanced games, the founder of Compass and Aai, the psychedelic companies, and kind of his role in those spaces. I started two companies, a Tai and Compass, both are listed. Both companies together raised more than $1.5 billion. What I wanted to kind of dive into today was his personal history and kind of his thoughts and philosophical thoughts for the future. So, we're going to kind of look at Anger Meer's exceptionalism towards himself in the drug space and these ideas he has about drugs, his kind of dystopian views on the future, and we'll close out with some of his more general eccentricities that he demonstrates in these interviews.

[02:46] So, kind of on that first topic of Anger Meyer's elite exceptionalism, one of the things that he discusses with Ross in the New York Times interview is how there's this consumer need for self-improvement and really emphasizing that he wants to do this through FDA approved drugs. And so, the first kind of two pieces of content I have here are going to serve more as like background flavor for the clips to come. So, they're a little bit milktoast, but I think we'll have things to reference back from these clips once we get into some of the latter ones. What I hope where the world is going is like there is a clear demand positively, I would almost say it's a cry for help of the consumer that people want to improve their life with science.

[03:34] And by the way, the positive cry for help or positive show of demand are all these GLPS like all the weight loss drugs like Punjaro or Zmpeic. By the way, last year they made more revenues than all the AI companies together. So, and by the way, more than 50% of the people who using these weight loss drugs are not using it for what they clinically meant. They meant for diabetes and clinically obese people. I'm on a GP1. Yeah. Why? Because it's outsourced discipline. I'm not clinically obese hopefully. So, what is the cry for help? You just said there's a cry for help. It's the cry for help is winning. The positive thing is that now we have one category which is the weight loss drugs and look like it's like biggest business. Yeah. So it's that people want the kind of optimization they get from GOP ones and they want it in other areas.

[04:24] Exactly. They want to have more muscles. They want to have more sex. They want to have more fun when they go out and party. Whatever they want. And now we can decide as society that we ridicule that. And what then happens that we have the more fringes let's say neutrally. Yeah. People are breaking their jaws who recommend very crazy stuff. You don't recommend jobs to attain what you have. So but what I'm saying is there is this demand and I want to fill it scientifically and we have these amazing agency. The FDA is a great institution. They really have a very high bar. I can tell you doing drug development since 28 years like yeah it's a very high bar and my view is let's get stuff a let's use stuff which has already gone through that high bar which by the way again I want to say it again because you insinuated oh we don't know the risks we do know the risk because that is for to be clear we know risks of things that have passed the FDA process hopefully and then we have one other screenshot

[05:24] From a times article that just sort of further emphasizes Anggermire's approach around the FDA. But you can already see some of his rhetoric kind of cracking there where he's talking about the benefits of taking things through the FDA process and then that he is on some of these drugs off label for what they went through FDA processes for. But this was a Times UK article where Anger Meyer says his mantra is that these drugs should stay illegal. We and talking about psychedelics, we want to get all these psychedelics approved as medication. He says, "We took the decision early on not to go down the cannabis route and try to lobby for legislation, but to go down the medical route for clinical trials and applying to the FDA for most of these treatments. We want it to be not just a prescription medication, but a treatment you can only take while you are with your therapist."

[06:12] Just wanted to emphasize some of his philosophies on what he's trying to bring into the world and around his sort of specifications of how these things should be done. I just wanted to chime in about one euphemistic marketing phrase that came up in the clip which was yeah outsourced discipline which I find very disturbing and fascinating just as a peak into this mindset because it's like saying outsource cognition to AI you know it's like you don't have to you can have the machine do the thinking for you and acting like it's still your thinking it's like it's actually not your discipline if you are outsourcing it and that's just that's not a comment about you know I'm not making any claims about the right for people to use it, but just to frame it in that way.

[06:57] It's actually like not the same thing as the way that we usually describe what discipline is. And cultivating discipline, just like cultivating cognition, leads to other sorts of ways of being in the world beyond what's available when you're outsourcing it in the way that he's describing there. And then he gets into this other kind of five basics that he thinks healthy people should be doing in the Ross interview with the New York Times that to me is like kind of flip-flops what he said in those original clips. We people always want to know for me and this is exactly what we're debating now is like what's the medications we can take. Yeah, it all just makes sense if you cover your basics. And the basics are five things in life for health and sleep is the number one.

[07:44] Get your sleep in order. Second is social relations. Super cheap and super hard at the same time. Have a great life. Enjoy it. Have friends. Have family. Third one is no drugs. You love now, but maybe it's like coming from me. But like I hate drugs, by the way. The negative version of it. Yeah. And I think the number one drug which should not be even allowed is alcohol. It destroys everything. Alcohol is scientifically the worst and it's spiritually a path to hell. That's my view. Yeah. I've never touched it and they will never. Yeah. And by the way, marijuana, I have not touched it. I would not. Makes you dumb. Yeah. There are medical use cases, but again, by the way, also, so everything is also always a trade-off. If I would have a medical use case with Mariana Help, maybe I would do it. But I clearly see the side effects, which is especially when you're younger. By the way, this where do you begin? I don't It's just hard.

[08:30] It's It's so hard to know where to begin here. He would love marijuana if he could profit off of it. He would absolutely be all over it if he could profit. And one thing I just wanted to say about the last clip, it's like he's talking about the consumers crying out for help. And yeah, I understand that, but they're crying out for help because the world his [expletive] billionaire class created is become inhospitable for people to live in. Like they're fed they have food deserts. Like food has no nutrition in it. Yeah, I get it. in the short term if it's going to help reduce weight and all of the diseases that are, you know, are compounded because of that. But again, there's like no systemic analysis here at all. Well, and does anyone else see when he's talking about drugs in this clip, the hypocrisy when viewed in frame of the clip before where he's talking about the individual should have the right to like perfect themselves how they want or have better sex or have better parties and then

[09:31] Yeah. his opinion that alcohol is destructive and marijuana makes you dumb. So because he chooses not to do it, no one else should. Yeah. And he's never done it. I kind of believe that. I guess I kind of believe that. He kind of seems like a guy who's never had weed. It's kind of amazing commenting on on it without ever having tried it. He's quite the tea totler around alcohol. Anytime I hear somebody say that weed just makes you dumb. It makes me remember that the first time that I ever like when I first started smoking weed, I was pretty like late to it. I think I was 25 or 26 like when I first started actually smoking. And I was so like nervous about how it would affect my job. And I remember like I got a vape pen and I started kind of like hitting it on little walks that I would take, like breaks I would take during work.

[10:23] And like a week or so after I started doing that, my manager pulled me aside and he was like, "Hey man, like we just we really wanted to talk to you because we've noticed like a change in your attitude and you've just been a really good team player lately and we just really appreciate it." And [laughter] like he was just like talking. He was like, "Whatever you've been doing, like keep doing it." And I was like, "Yes, sir. Don't mind if I do." Yeah. [laughter] And there's definitely like people have different reactions to it. you know, it's like some people and the reason I say that, the reason I bring it up is because I think there's he doesn't have like a robust picture of all the options and the way that he is asking like Russ was saying, there's a certain hypocrisy here because definitely for some people there is the experience of smoking a bowl and then just like veging on the couch and just wanting to eat stuff and not like exert any effort, but that's not everyone's experience of cannabis.

[11:16] So yeah, there's just like he has a very dogmatic view of specific substances and then other substances that really don't have a lot of an evidence base behind them. He's like full speed. And there's also nothing wrong with that either. Like that's relaxation to people. Going out and drinking with your friends is like a great way to socialize if you're moderate about it. It's like every drug. Like there's no such thing as a good or bad drug. It just depends on like the person using it, the mindset behind it. Just depends if you can get IP and profit from it. Yeah, [laughter] that too. That too. Do we want to finish that clip? I don't think we need to finish that one because we kind of hit the point that I was interested in talking about. The rest he talks about how sleep is important and some stuff like that. But what we have been discussing is the drugs that Anger Meyer has or hasn't done, which is the next clip that I have.

[12:05] Long story short, like psychedelics are about to be approved. You're going to see psilocybin active ingredient magic mushrooms. You can take it with your doctor next year and all the other psychedelics we're developing DMT 5 MUDMT IU a new version of MDMMA are going to come I would say over the next 3 to 5 years to market and which are the ones that you have taken yourself or that you take now. So I do regularly psilocybin which is the active ingredient imaging mushrooms regularly means I do it once maximum twice a year with a therapist together in a country where it's already legal. So I do it the proper way how it will be in the United States hopefully next year end of this year next year. So I have done 5 MOD DMT I've done DMT.

[12:50] I've actually done our entire pipeline except the fiber grain. Why is he so confident that it'll be approved like this or next year? I mean, he just talked about how robust the FDA approval process is, and we've seen it not work already. Like, what's he thinking? And he's been on this trip of like, these things have to be approved by the FDA. You have to do them in the correct setting. You have to do them with the right professionals. And he's like, I've tried every drug in our pipeline. None of them are [laughter] approved yet. Yeah. And it also like you know his new story here is you know I'm doing it the way that I'm asking others to do it but that's not been his story historically as Russ you've covered. No and in fact I can take you on quite a journey here [laughter] we'd like to because that's the next couple things I have.

[13:37] Did anyone else have anything they wanted to comment on before I do for like this libertarian right rightwing guide to tell anyone what the correct way to do it? There's like not a correct way to do it. These people have botched clinical trials. like there's not even like any consensus on what the proper therapeutic protocols are for this whatsoever. No. And he certainly doesn't know. And so one of the reasons I Mike is joining us from camping and stuff and I'm really appreciative of that and I was hoping he would come on here because I've been following Anger Meyer's kind of origin story for a long time and documenting a lot of the flip-flopping and contradictory stories he tells about his use of psychedelics.

[14:31] And I wasn't sure who on the team might not be familiar with those origins. They're not something we've like spot lit to our audience like over and over and over again. It's in some of my reporting from years past, but I was really hoping Mike would be able to come on so I could have someone new to this topic to look at some of this content with. James, I'm not sure if you've seen it either, but it's very interesting how Anger Meer describes his origins with psilocybin. So, if you want to play clip five where Anger Meer talks about his first shaman with Ross on the NT opinions podcast real quick just so we can see how he brings it up in conversation today. This is all a very spiritual experience. Some people by the way might not call it like that. I have a friend who's actually big shout out because he was my first sort of shaman like in my very first trip.

[15:19] He's very very he would call himself although he does psychedelics really an atheist but then when I talk to him he's like you're not an atheist like you just don't like the word you like religious like you believe in something bigger like okay so that's a clip where he's talking about people being spiritual with psychedelics and psychedelics making people more spiritual but he calls out this person who he describes as his first shaman and his friend so who was that was sort of where I wanted to drill into and the times screenshot number two James gets a little bit further into that but I still think doesn't name them but so it gives a little bit of background on who Christian is his sort of child prodigy things his founding of the company Ribboa which is also kind of at odds with some stories I've uncovered u we can talk about that in a little bit too but then it gets into that after meeting a neuroscientist at a dinner party who told him about the research of David Nut anger became interested in psychedelics and then in 2014 He was on holiday with his friends in the

[16:20] Caribbean. Quote, "They were like, hey, we're doing magic mushrooms tomorrow, and we know you don't want to, but just so you know what we're doing." And I said, "You know what? I'm going to do it." And so he just took magic mushrooms with some friends in the Caribbean, according to this story. But if we want to play the last clip I have here of Angry Meer's origin stories where he discusses this on the New Health Club podcast and then on the Danny in the Valley podcast. It's also contradictory what he tells people. So one is from 2021, one is from 2019. I believe I was in the Caribbean with really really close friends whom I trust. And as people say, we might come to that later. It's all about set and setting. So it was the right moment, right environment, right people. And they had homegrown magic mushrooms.

[17:07] It was in a country to add that the disclaimer where magic mushrooms are legal. They were like, "Want to try?" And I was like, "You know what? Yeah, let's do it." And as I always say in one sentence, it was the single most meaningful thing, important thing, defining thing in my whole life I ever did. You were depressed or just No, in that case it was, it's a long story. just a music festival. No, it's No, it's actually thankfully it's not because I this is what I don't believe in. I so and I had the big luck that I had the access to very control. It was perfect setting. Was it a treatment center or No, it was in nature but with professional people around me. I was completely Where was that? Was that in the Netherlands?

[17:52] Exactly. And the main difference that we as I as investor and the companies I invested in have compared to the Denver proposal and there's another one I think in Colorado is that these are potentially very potent drugs and solutions for severe mental health problems but they have to be administered in a professional setting meaning under medical care. So I find his paternalism to be vomitous to be honest. I that's a great response. That was well done. I just can't [laughter] Well, so he is contradicting himself over and over, right? He said first he said it was with the shaman. Were his sham were was the shaman his close buddies in the Caribbean, you know, at a and like good sentence setting of course, but then later he's talking about his first time being in the Netherlands in a professional therapeutic setting.

[18:45] And is he just changing his nar like it looked like the years were kind of off too. He was just kind of flip-flopping. He didn't have a like chronological story of when that flip-flopped actually changed, right? Yeah. So, you're following correctly. You are definitely on point here. Do you want to know who his first shamans were? Yes, please. Okay. So, around the time when a Thai went public, he kind of came out and publicly thanked his very first shamans who got him involved in psilocybin. So, if you want to pull up his LinkedIn post from that time, this is just a little cut from a longer post about a Thai ipoing where he thanks two people for being his very first shamans. He says, "Thank you to my dearest Julian Morris and Landon Ross for being my shamans on my first trip and many more that followed."

[19:35] But it says four years ago. So, if he was only doing one or two per year, there couldn't have been that many more. I mean, just the math isn't really lining up for me. [laughter] Yeah, that's a good point. But so, of course, I had to look up who Julian Morris and Landon Ross were as Christian Angermmer's first shamans. I think their bios are on the next slide here. Landon Ross is an artist, a native Angelino dabbling in food, psychedelics, science, and how things hang together in the broadest possible sense of the term. And Julian Morris is an actor from Pretty Little Liars, Hands of God, and New Girl. [laughter] Okay. So, so they're both professionals is what I mean. They are professionals. They've got work. Oh, can you read the things hang together?

[20:22] I found that compelling. And how things hang together in the broadest possible sense of the term. [laughter] It's professional [expletive] Normie, you wouldn't get I hate the internet. How things hang together was in quotation marks. So it's a quote from Wilfred Sellers philosophy that's coming up on posts related to like AI and maybe a kind of way of looking at things in the tech world. So it's also probably like signaling. I can't believe it. [laughter] But what are his dabblings in food and psychedelics? Like is he just an investor? He's an actor that had some money to throw into a tie. I believe they're both invested in a Tai according to Instagram posts that I've seen. And yeah, they just dabble in the investing scene with Christian Angermmer. And I have verified that those are the two people.

[21:07] Like he's got them in pictures with him and things like that online, too. So, it's not just a random Julian Moore or Landon Ross there. Honestly, it sounds like a pretty run-of-the-mill shaman, you know, in terms of how often you hear about these kind of things. So, yeah. So, it seems like Okay. So, it seems like these are just like two buddies that went with him to wherever he actually like took mushrooms, which seems like it was mostly more or less recreational, but he's trying to basically scrub that story and make it seem more like he would never do just recreational mushrooms with his friends in the jungle. But yes, it's very strange. There is a very much like this is the rules for you but not for me vibe around the way that Christian Angermeer describes how people should be doing psychedelics.

[22:02] But yeah, I just wanted to highlight for our audience and anyone who wasn't familiar with some of Christian Angermmer's backstory, how hypocritical he is around his stress around the FDA and his kind of contradictory stories about how he uses these drugs. You know, he's this billionaire who can go to the Caribbean on a yacht and take psychedelics, but nobody else can do that, and they should all do it his way. Well, it feeds into the thing, a different clip of his at some point where he's talking about like technofudalism without actually saying the word. I don't know if we're going to talk about that here, but it's perfectly aligned. Like, he wants us to rent psychedelics from his elite technofudalist technocrat state. And like that's how he's going to make money. That's how he's going to profit off of it. and where succumb to his rules, whereas he can just do it, you know, as he pleases.

[22:51] Yeah. And that will absolutely come up in a clip in just a minute here. I think the last point of hypocrisy in his backstory I wanted to point out was something that I uncovered when I was researching him for the first time. Just as kind of a side note, what I mentioned that company Ribboa that he says he was a founder on, I kind of accidentally discovered this fairly massive hole in the story he was telling him about himself by reaching out to the actual founders of Ribboa at the time and just being like, "Hey, can you tell me about this guy who helped you found this company?" If you want to pull up the little slide from the article I wrote about this James for a while Christian was listing riboparma in every bio you could find of him online and I got to write this is something I haven't seen in any reporting ever since then and he's kind of stopped emphasizing ribboparma but one of Riboparma's co-founders Roland Croitzer told me that Angermmy was hired on at Ribboparma to provide managerial experience and that he initially served as a member of our supervisory board and made important

[23:52] Important contacts to several venture capital firms. Kitzer said that Anger Meyer was not a co-founder of Ribboa, however, as is claimed in many of Anger Meer's biographies across the internet, including his Italian life sciences bio. Psymposia reached out to Anger Meer for comment on this involvement in ribboparma and to learn what managerial experience he had in his 20s, but has not heard back at the time of this publishing. So, that was just or at the time of this recording, I assume. Yes. Yeah. [laughter] He still hasn't gotten back to you on that one. Not on Rivoarma. No. W. So, I just wanted to point that out as kind of a an end stamp on his exceptionalism and background talk today. And we can move forward into some of what Mike was discussing here, which is kind of the more dystopian future theme around Christian Anger Meyer.

[24:45] And Nishay, I don't know if you want to speak to this at all, but you wrote a lot about Christian in your paper, Testrial Hallucinations, and some of his views for how psychedelics might be used in the future. Yeah. Well, I was really interested in how Ingram Meer amongst the billionaire class tends to say more than some of the others, the quiet part out loud a lot more openly. I don't know exactly why he does that, but in particular, he was describing his interest in using psychedelics as a kind of new opium for the masses to prevent the possibility of a popular uprising against a the world that the elites were building. And he openly identified as being amongst the builders and saying, you know, it's not good for mental health. the world that we're building like the some somewhere I think the majority of people feels that the world is going in a direction which a doesn't make sense for them so they can't understand a lot of things anymore and b they subconsciously

[25:47] And that's even worse know there might be no place for them in the world let's say we the tech elite is building and so using psychedelics to try to prevent a popular revolution essentially was what he's openly described on his everyone with the website he posts a lot to is it like maybe LinkedIn or something but he has like long essays essentially where he like describes a lot of this so I've been very interested in because I think my take and I don't know this is just kind of my sense but I think that he's in conversations with a lot of people that are talking about this kind of thing and he just you know it doesn't sound like all these ideas are coming from him natively like it sounds like he's like we're having a peak behind the curtain into how some of the billionaires are thinking and talking about this kind of new world order situation that they're building out.

[26:40] Yeah, he definitely claims to be good friends with Peter Teal and credits a lot of ideas to Teal that he has kind of run with. And I think you'll be particularly interested in this next clip because in the Tesriel article, you do write about this idea of him saying psychedelics might be used to get humans back in touch with themselves in a more dystopian future or things like that on the LinkedIn post as well as I think he talks about that in his diary of a CEO interview with Steven Bartlett. But he has clearly continued thinking about this concept and has refined it in this current interview that he did with Scott Phoenix, the AI company founder in that 50 years progress interview. Just a couple of examples of the kinds of things that you're invested in or involved in this space and then we'll drill down into some of the subjects.

[27:29] Well, the favorite one is always psychedelics. Like that's what I think is like on on a narrow with a narrow few they have the potential to really change the way how we treat mental health issues which already is huge and it's only growing because I think humans are very anti-change and we going we will actually in the next 10 years go through the biggest change humanity in the shortest period of time had ever to do it and this will create a lot of fear and I think psychedelics can actually help describing the problem here guide people or help them adjust humanity to sort of a radically different future so much counterveailing force right now about the idea that technology is fundamentally a destructive force that the data centers are destroying the environment that AI is seeking all the jobs because I think mostly what they hear about is the unredeemed future where no one has any jobs and the environment's wrecked and like I think that's what a lot of young people believe every single time again you go back in history and something similar

[28:31] Disruptive on a global scale has happened. We reacted as humanity as a whole with fear. There is a medical condition called adjustment disorder. It's usually used when people are confronted with extreme change in their life, a negative one which is usually a terminal ill or could be loss of job and in 5 years from now the majority of the world will have adjustment disorder because in front of their very eyes societal adjustment disorder. Yeah. And we've seen that psychedelics have a tremendously positive effect on that because they take away the panic, take away the fear, and give people hopefully a perspective. Well, so he's basic he's describing a problem that we're going to have a societal adjustment disorder to this massive change.

[29:16] And without actually talking about him championing this change and like the society being what he wants it to be, he's like, "Yeah, let's just dose everyone and they'll chill out about it." Right. Like it's not like we should change the way that, you know, the society is ruining everyone's lives. We should just make them deal with it better. Yeah. In that sense, it reminds me of Dpettomania, which was a mental illness that was used to like it hypothesized that this is from Wikipedia entry. Japania hypothesized there was a mental illness as the cause of enslaved Americans fleeing captivity and says the hypothesis was based on the belief that slavery was such an improvement upon the lives of slaves that only those suffering from some form of mental illness would wish to escape.

[30:03] So again, it's like there's the kind of hegemonic power like society order ordering things in a way that is oppressive. And because that is treated as good and inevitable, anyone who is not going with the program must be, you know, kind of like medicated or like kind of treated as having some kind of medical illness or mental illness aberration. that explains rather than actually stepping back and asking whether this system should be the one that exists, the individual, which is like the whole thing that neoliberal does in neoliberalism does in the first place is individualize everybody, disconnect everybody. But like this is even a step further, right? Where he's talking about the new change that we're going to be post neoliberal world is going to be even harder for everyone and we need to dose them even further because they're pathized.

[30:55] They're the ones that are ill, not the society. Mhm. Right. And I think it's worth mentioning like in this hypothetical future of his where five years down the line everybody's got adjustment disorder, I would wager that in his vision, he doesn't have an adjustment disorder and the other people in his like elite circle haven't had to adjust much. It's mostly that the rest of us have to adjust to be able to keep them kind of where they're at. And I think that there's a very different way of seeing the future [laughter] where that doesn't necessarily have to be the way. Yeah. They're creating the context that we need to adjust to. Yeah. Right. Where did he get these timelines? Like why does he keep saying one year, five years?

[31:41] Like he actually has these predictive. Is there a real reason for that or is he just Mike? I do I to answer your question I think that these entrepreneur guys it's just constantly they have to give you kind of short timelines but not short enough for you to it's the Musk thing right it's just it's constant I don't disagree with him though I do think psilocybin is going to be approved I think a lot of the errors that were made in the maps trials are were not made at least not in a completely blatant disregard the way maps was. So I do think plus just the pressure, the lobbying to an extent regulatory capture of FDA. I think that's very plausible that psilocybin is approved.

[32:27] As far as the rest of them, yeah, I don't know if we're there yet. to go back to the point about like this perspective on what psychedelics can do and thinking about mental health and the way that Anger Meyer is describing here. If you extend this out and you think about other people in this billionaire or not trillionaire orbit like Elon Musk, he's been really focused on this idea of like suicidal empathy, toxic empathy as something that is like standing in the way from society doing what it needs to do to progress. And so you can imagine a future where with this sort of rhetoric leading the charge, people who are disturbed about the ICE kind of concentration camps in the United States being portrayed as having some kind of mental disorder that needs to be medicated away.

[33:14] Like you're feeling that this is wrong is a medical problem and that's medicate you to get in line in step with the program. It's hard to even wrap your mind around like a world where everybody is doing psychedelics to cure their techn the AI adjustment is is the [expletive] weirdest [expletive] ever. It's also not going to happen. I do want to like kind of separate some of this in my own thinking that yes, this is the narrative that he's pushing. It's never going to happen. There's never going to be like a huge slice of the public that is doing psychedelics on a regular basis. maybe more than now depending on to the extent that they integrate this with healthcare and as a mainline treatment. I don't see it being a mainline treatment in forever for me like my personal 10 years. [laughter] I don't think this is going to be a mainline treatment.

[34:06] I think it'll be for psychiatrists who look at the research and look at the data. I think it'll be sort of a an option. I don't think it'll be a mainline as a counter perspective. I just wanted to put in like just as a different way of thinking about the situation and kind of a different way of thinking about what he's saying. You I think normie told me about some film where they end up like and like killing slightly older people like around 40 or something. Yeah, that's like Logan's Run. Yeah, I haven't seen it, but you showed me some scene from it where they're like kind of people are like embracing their going off into the void, right? Yeah. Basically, once you hit 40 years old, you have to you go up in this you're like levitated into this [laughter] zapper.

[34:57] Yeah. And then if you and then if you get out of that and you become a fugitive, they'll send I think they call him a sandman. They'll that you're hunted. Yeah. And so from that with that in mind I personally don't want to just be like you know oh this isn't going to happen it's just marketing because I do think that there is a risk because of the meaning making sort of like potential and feeling connected to something larger that could happen with psychedelics. You can short circuit that impulse and direct it into believing in this AGI future and kind of be told that your sacrifice of your life of your whatever is actually on behalf of this more meaningful thing that you're helping to bring about.

[35:43] And I don't want to write that off because I think that everything we know about psychedelics and the way that they're intending to move things and also the way Steve Derbbertson has been talking about re-engineering the religious impulse, I think that there is a very real risk that there are at least people in that side of the world that are trying that are actually thinking about using psychedelics to get people on board with the program. I don't want to dismiss it either and I think that's very valid. At the same time, I guess I do think that the sort of orbit, the web of beliefs in the Teal Musk, Anger Meyer, Jervson, the Silicon Valley just out of touch billionaire class, I think is so repulsive to the masses of people.

[36:30] I guess I have hope in like grassroots resistance that their ideas are so antisocial and so toxic that overall it'll be rejected. I don't want to I don't want to just dismiss it entirely though. I do think those ideas could be extremely dangerous, could root themselves in this. I could see a world where a lot of working class because they're so dis disillusioned with the system start advocating for this tech technofudalist state for sure and that'll include psychedelics as a optimization religious type baptism into that worldview.

[37:15] I can certainly see that happen. I guess I would just say I think that would happen on a smaller group of people if that makes sense. This is the same clip that he talks about putting MDMA in the water, right? Before we get to the MDMA in the water, we'll actually we should hit the clip that you mentioned earlier, Mike, which actually I think is a perfect extension of the conversation we're having right now because it encapsulates the future that Christian Angermeer is entertaining himself thinking about in this interview with Scott Phoenix where Scott Phoenix kind of asks him like, "Where do you see the future going?" I might pause this one a couple of times because it's a little bit long and I think there's a couple points throughout that we'll be able to talk about. So like where's where does the future take us? I think the two things we take for granted is the wester is democracy and capitalism and they could both be needing at least like a revamp.

[38:10] 20 years from now you and I are having this conversation and you're telling me how things work. Like what's your best guess? I cannot see that we need human labor beyond 10 years from now. And maybe, by the way, we keep it a bit because we're so attached to it, but like I don't think we need it like because we're going to have a new class of slaves which going to be robots. By the way, with all the debates we're going to have, are they conscious? Is it okay? I would say like there will be a pause there. [laughter] What? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, we can talk. This is going to look so stupid in 20 years. It's just he like falls into this I think it's a meme of like capitalists not being able to imagine a future without slaves or [laughter] something like he just cannot imagine it.

[38:56] Yeah. He kind of seemed like he went out of his way a little bit to use the term slave. Like he didn't really have to and [laughter] it was like almost like he took pleasure in it like you said like it just he can't see a future without it. Like this is the answer for how we have slaves in the future. And then he's like, "Oh, and all the debates we're going to have about ethics or whatever." I'm like, "Well, I mean, if they're conscious and whatnot, like you're going to have conscious slaves, like, you know, which is what you want. So bad." And I was listening, Norm, to that clip you shared with the in the chat with the muscam author guy, and I think it was in that that they were talking about, you know, someone describing labor costs as a tax, you know, like a burden that companies like shouldn't have to pay. And so as they're trying to get rid of all the other taxes, humans are just, you know, a weight weighing things down that they see as, you know, they're now in a position to move past needing that.

[39:53] I think this conversation is is I think is going to age just so terribly. You're already starting to see the claims that AI is going to steal all the jobs. Like the CEOs are starting to backpedal on that as they're just discovering that it's actually not the case. It's and there I think there was a Harvard paper that had come out that actually showed it required more workers. So yeah, it might cut down on some pointless jobs. I don't think this argument is going too well for them at this point. And like just for a survival like a billionaire class survival mechanism. So you're going to have nobody that has jobs. What do you think they're going to do? I do think like I was just reading something or saw something about Zuckerberg like and how Meta has conscripted a bunch of their labor force and kind of force them to now work as an AI training enterprise where and their rationale was that well they're on average like higher

[40:56] Intelligence than if we hired a random cast of people to do that. And so I do think a lot of this class of billionaires like do believe that they're going to be able to do away with human labor. I don't think it's just a marketing thing. I think that they're kind of on the cusp of it and they are making plans for a future where this amount of humans on the planet is not necessary and is actually a would be a burden to them. I think they fully believe that. I think they despise humanity and I think they're gonna despise humanity even more as the people push back against them. They're going to run into a wall though when it comes to they're not going to complete this.

[41:44] This is where I think you and I are coming at this from like different perspectives. I think it's healthy for there to be like different perspectives on this. I love your arguments and debate with you. I think it's good. I enjoy it cuz I think it is good for people to be looking at the like but what if like dangerous flank as much as it's good to have some people who are like trying to think okay well you know hopefully there will be enough resistance to prevent this from happening in order to have sort of the different bases covered. So I my orientation is just to keep an eye on like but what if they are successful in preventing mass uprisings and they're just too far advanced and what harm could they do or do in the meantime if they are eventually stopped but like what will happen until that point.

[42:31] So I think a lot of this is very concerning and I the bridge that I see between your two perspectives is that for a future in which Norm's kind of hopeful vision can play out has to be preceded by an understanding of what could go wrong and people watching out for that and I think they should be taken seriously. I'm not saying to dismiss what it is that they're saying. I think they should be taken very seriously and smashed and dismantled and gone after. I just don't think they're going to win at all. I also want to point out that like a lot of this is them pumping their bags too. like let's not just dismiss that because they have to keep the narrative alive that AI is going to be this philosopher stone holy grail for companies to be able to reduce labor and increase profits and earnings.

[43:27] I think it's completely unsustainable. And I think what they're doing right now to your point about pumping their bags is that they're just like trying to tread water to be able to keep that narrative, you know, to keep their money, their valuations to a point that like isn't going to cause like a bubble collapse and a societal upheaval basically. And in the meantime, you know, we all just sort of have to watch how insane it sounds like, you know, from these clips and like maybe some people are believing them. Like the interviewer seems to be like on board somehow, but I don't really understand like why there's no end game, right? It's all just sort of like it's the same thing with capitalism. It's just like this perpetual neverending like get it all, get more, do more.

[44:16] And it but it can't it will end. Like we can't have data centers the size twice the size of Manhattan and Utah that are going to increase the freaking temperature [laughter] by 15 degrees C and expect people to survive to even use AI. Well, but that's the point is that they're not it's like within that perspective the endgame is to get off planet and to you know just go colony colonize the solar system that and bring it a little closer to Earth in the shade. Would you say that the endgame though is to like eliminate human labor that that's one version of an endgame for them? Yeah, but I'm saying it's not contradictory within their framework because that is totally conceivable if the earth is just a source of fuel that you can burn up in order to spread this to the stars like that that is the framework that a lot of these guys are operating within.

[45:10] They're they don't care about making the world habitable for future generations of life that's alive today. You know that this form of life. It's about the digital consciousness and sending it to the stars. Last thing on that, I do think that there is another way to look at this whereas like for example they I mean this is something that the Trump administration has been doing since forever, right? Like they make they do some extreme comments and then they get they can inch forward a little bit more and a little bit more toward whatever that goal is. So like saying for this Utah data center example is actually an interesting one. Kevin Olirri said, "I'm not budging. I'm not budging. We're doing it twice the size of Manhattan." So so forth. And then he's like, "I'm not moving an inch." And then legislation passed or something. The council approved, "Okay, we can do it 70% of the size."

[45:58] And he's like, "Okay, I'll be okay with 70% of the size." Even though he wasn't budging, right? But that ended up being the plan all along. The original architecture plans were that it was that size. So there may be some kind of like art of the deal situation here where they're just like throwing out these extreme things and then hoping that they can get halfway there. Right. Right. Right. Well, for Christian Anger and the stars, you might be thinking a little too far in the future. He's got some particular opinions about that sweet spot in the middle. If we want to wrap this clip up, will be this class of robots combined with AI who do most of human labor. So that means we have to reinvent humanity already in this point which I think again the outcome can be great. The transition can be shitty. Take the Roman Republic.

[46:43] So first of all you had Roman citizens who didn't work practically and you had the slave class. So say now the slave class are the robots and everybody else is the Roman citizen. So we don't work. Yeah. They did spend their time with pastimes with by the way pastimes we now actually value a lot because we build our entire western civilization on philosophy. So all the really like wow thoughts which shaped western society I know it's controversial what I'm saying was made by slave owners because they had time to do that. Yeah. Because other people did the work. Now the other great thought within both Greek society and Roman society within the citizen society you had the ones who owned land and the one who don't and how Roman democracy worked is that the land owners were responsible for their other citizens they were called patrones to provide them enough

[47:44] For their living but in return they got the vote. because they had to be nice because otherwise the clientele would have gone to another patronis and because they were Roman citizen and had voting power it would have given this other person more political influence. So maybe in a very extreme way countries are disbanding and you have the ones who own practically the land of the future is AI and robotics. So they really own the economy, but because we're still a democracy, that's would be a smart way to redistribute. They have to give parts of their wealth. And by the way, if you go to the Roman economy, these patrons were giving significant parts of their wealth. We're not talking about the 1% in order to keep their influence.

[48:30] So maybe we have the big corporations like Google and all of them. maybe they have to provide for the rest of us which we then can use to buy services from their robots in the ivory [laughter] but they have to be so I just so the whole thing is that corporations will provide for us to buy from corporations yes right okay I just want to make sure I'm tracking all right we'll finish it up here and they compete because if they lose too many clientele then something bad is going to happen because some of the competitors like so that is I think where I could see both democracies was for two things democracy and capitalism moving towards so in other words not democ democracy or capitalism exactly right that's one of the best like little clips that I've seen that highlights the need to just dismantle these companies like the dire need to dismantle these companies

[49:31] All of them are talking like this too they're all serious about this like they want this post capitalism technoism state. They want to own these lands of the future. I mean, you hear Sam Alman talking about he wants intelligence to be a utility like you turn on your hose and it's like literally we they want us to rent information and rent you know I mean it's a literally fuelism and the democracy side of this is that we get to choose if we want to choose Google's Gemini or you know open AI or whatever and so is that democracy I mean no his point about like this is Peter Teal's like fantasy world. Yeah, it felt like they were describing like company towns as countries at one point.

[50:16] Like when you pointed that out, James, where it was like the instead of just a town, they are the country that you're like existing within, they're providing the services and the capital for you to then buy back from them things that they're producing. And look at this what he's saying like from that perspective of like the more concerning direction. I don't personally think that these billionaires want to like raise the average person that they kind of see as NPCs up to the stature of a Roman kind of nobleman. In part because education and the freedom to actually interrogate the material conditions that give rise to your oppression creates conditions where their hegemony can be contested and they don't want that.

[51:03] You look if you look at the history of laborers coming to the United States from other countries, the way that pigeons used to be useful and then once they were no longer useful were relegated to vermin and there were attempts at like eradicating them and marginalizing them in cities. All the history that we have suggests that they're not going to try to give the average person a better quality of life and the freedom to act like those Roman figures that he's describing. No, this is specifically to prevent them being overthrown. I think it's quite explicit in what he's saying. Well, if we get really I mean the more to Niche's kind of like more doomerish point like they've already described that they don't need human labor. Why do they want us around anyway?

[51:48] Like all we are is like, you know, either rent machines for a while, the burden of tax or whatever, and then we're a stepping stone to whatever their next evolutionary future looks like. This is I just think they fail here. I think that that's the line that they don't need human labor. And I don't think they're ever going to accomplish some world like for instance, US factories are have been heavily this one of the biggest [expletive] lines of the Trump administration. Oh, we're going to reshore manufacturing when put people back in factories. One of the reason why like the Midwest and the rust belt and everything have been so hammered is o over the decades is because they have been automated. Like there I'm not saying that there's not any more automation that can be done, but they're already heavily automated.

[52:36] So I just Where are these jobs that are going to be cut? I think that yeah, there's going to be a lot of middle management that's caught. there's going to be a good amount of like white collar [expletive] jobs that are cut. I just don't where are they going to get this from? I don't see where those gains are where they're going to be able to trim from. I just don't think that they need an economy based on material consumption the way that it has been where people buy products and that kind of thing. I've been reading No, they don't. Yeah. So it's like once that once they no longer need there to be this big working force even if the gains are not there it's like they're already pivoting to a world where they don't see the number of humans alive on this planet as in line with their goals of extraction and profit.

[53:24] Right at the point that he's describing it's like the job of the companies and the elites to be like paying people. And at that point it's not just labor costs. It's just tossing money and resources at like people. This is how England was structured forever. This is like the landed aristocracy, the landed gentry. Like it was their job. They owned everything and people worked for them, work their land and they had to provide like some sort of services that that system attempted to like come to America. It was a little bit different in America because there was tons of land available like land for everybody was available. And so that system kind of cracked in the United States where like you could just leave England and get some plot of land in the United States. There was no wiggle room in England for that. I don't know where I'm going with that, but they are trying to recreate that world for sure.

[54:13] So, this is where we get into this difficulty of like a lot of people do think that we're moving back into a feudal orientation, but I think we're moving into a different relationship where they actually don't want so many pesky people living on their land that could potentially be a threat to them. It's like the right people should be on their land. They should be providing for the right people, whatever that's going to mean one day. Yeah. And I think many of the people alive today are not seen as the right people. Yeah. No, they have outright contempt. And just because this is a really interesting topic and I think it's worthwhile for people to kind of at least be aware of what the more doomemory side of the options are, I am going to be trying to have a future conversation with some of the folks that are working in the analysis of the potential for callulling the working class or this kind of as some people are describing like a snuff capitalism.

[55:03] So yeah, and for those of you who are have gotten this far in the conversation, who have been listening in, if you have any thoughts on this, the different perspectives we've been raising, please do chime in the comments. Definitely. Well, unless we have anything else on that particular topic, we can veer into some still slightly dystopian areas, but on a more eccentric level, I think I have two clips left of Anger Meyer from these interviews where he's discussing MDMA in the water, and then finally, I think we'll round out on his views on aliens, which is kind of interesting. Oh god, I've been wondering. [laughter] Okay, I think psychedelics can hopefully help society without conflict move into the sort of next phase. But I told this idea since in the decade to friends of state friends of mine who are head of states or whatever.

[55:54] They're like, "Wow, like Christian, you're crazy." Like, yeah, I'm actually funny. I'm a big supporter of a thing called Munich Security Conference, which is a conflict resolution conference. Okay. So the number one politic conference I think was saying in the world and since 10 years I'm saying every year guys like we're doing that since 50 years and the conflicts are still not solved. Maybe it's time for a new way. Maybe it's time for me and they were very worried they could not joke. Like maybe it's time for me to slip some MDMA in the water of the hotel. And by the way, jokes aside, I do think it would work. But I just love we've been talking for years about how dumb the idea of dosing the water is and that like that nothing would come from that. And I just love that Christian with MDMA seems to be like putting this out there as if he's the first person to ever consider dosing the water with MDMA or any kind of psychedelic.

[56:45] Yeah. And by the way, I think it would work based on what? [laughter] I just love that he's talking to these security conference people and they're like, "Oh, maybe we shouldn't joke about that dude." [laughter] They're like kind of terrified he might actually do it. So you just made a joke that you would do a mass act of terrorism. I was just thinking it does bring back, you know, when I mentioned the MDMA and the water clip like I don't know half an hour ago or whatever like the whole illusion of choice thing that he's kind of talking about even with a democracy, you know, and all that. It's like or what Normie was saying about well maybe, you know, we don't think that there's going to be a lot of people just like taking psychedelics and it changes the world and everybody gets their adjustment disorder resolved from it. But if he's serious, then we don't have that choice, right?

[57:32] Like I mean, of course, this is like kind of farfetched, whatever, but like he's dead. He's like, "Yeah, this could work. Maybe if we just dose everyone in the hotel, they'd all be better. Maybe if we just dose everyone in the world with MDMA in the water, their adjustment disorder would go away and they would be, you know, appeased and not try and overthrow us." And I did just want to mention as a historical point, I had a librarian come from Hopkins come to one of my classes and kind of show some of the historical documents that students could access. And one of the documents that he pulled up, if I remember correctly, was the government had paid Hopkins researchers like back in the 60s or whatever to do like a threat analysis of like what would happen if like psychedelics were like put into the water supply in a major city and kind of thinking through.

[58:19] So it definitely is like there's been an interesting history of that concept. I'll try maybe in the future to pull up that that [laughter] document. We could chat about it. Yeah, that's a lot of the early CIA Yeah. research was we need our agents to dose so they can be aware once a Soviet gets them, you know, unsuspectingly. Yeah. I wonder what his thoughts are on fluoride in the water. I was thinking of fluoride [laughter] as like what that came up for me when I was hearing that and how people that are skeptical also of fluoride like how they would feel about people talking like this. Exactly. True. I mean, I don't think that Anger Meyers most of his opinions I don't think are popular whatsoever. It is a very thin slice of people I think that would get behind what it is that he's saying.

[59:10] And not even the people that are even in like he's not in a traditional like left or right, you know, lane at all. Most people who are share his similar politics, they [expletive] hate the FDA. the whole purpose of taking federal power is to dismantle the FDA entirely. And here he is having like a more like liberal perspective in praising the institution of the FDA. So he's not like he's not in a neat box at all. I think that his total belief system is based on his companies and like his solutions. That that's what his belief system is, which is why you can't really track it. There's no like systemic analysis of anything. If you got him in a private room, I think he's would he's going to acknowledge probably a lot of the points.

[59:59] But the all of these podcasts that he does are to attract new followers. It's all marketing. Like this is all mark. It's not just pure marketing. Obviously, he is saying some of his beliefs, but I think if you get him privately, it'd be kind of a different view of things. This is what he wants his like kind of fanboys to believe in. He even talks about that in interviews of kind of loving being the contrarian and loving bringing up topics that are a little bit taboo for people to discuss. And on the marketing point, like another just point of his origin story, he talks about growing up as like a closeted gay man in a small town in Bavaria where people were beating up gay people and that instead of coming out of the closet, he has contextualized not being able to come out as the best thing that ever happened to him. you know, the negative thing being gay in a very hostile environment and not talking about it and focusing on other stuff completely made my life.

[1:00:55] Yeah. In a very positive way. I would I mean Yeah. I'm so happy that this was the case because he was able to recontextualize to his parents why he never had a girlfriend as that he just wanted to be the best in school. And he just started telling this story over and over again that he just wanted to be the best in school, the most educated, the most blah blah blah. and how it all started as marketing for him. But then he saw it become the reality when he did become the best person in school and he did go on to become a billionaire venture capitalist and that the marketing language he was telling himself that started as marketing became the reality for him and that's like this philosophy that he seems to hold very close to his heart. Yeah. Well, Mike, didn't you say you said something kind of interesting? I think it was you in the chat about like how wealthy people like their minds work where it's like difficulties in life because they're successful are like framed as like well it got me to where I am now therefore it must have been good if I Exactly. wealthy people generalize their

[1:01:57] Success stories as like universal truths is is a very common thing to see. And this also relates to how they view their intuition or their judgment where they think that like, you know, because they were able to make decisions that led to having a lot of money, their judgment on things is just superior to other people's. And then therefore, like any other like, oh, this feels like a good idea. this seems right or true to me is is is given a lot of weight because of their like undue estimation and their own judgment. And I'm pretty sure Inger Myers says in this exact clip something along those lines about like regarding psilocybin too. He's like he talks about I can't remember exactly maybe we can find it or maybe this doesn't matter that much but the basically his point was in the same vein of like I never drink alcohol.

[1:02:50] I never do marijuana, but like I know psilocybin is good for me and it's good for everyone. And I when I know something is right, I do everything I can to make sure that the truth comes out or whatever. So you love pushing on taboss. I maybe I like pushing taboos, but I also want to see you definitely like pushing taboos, but only if I know I'm right. Once I believe in something very much, then I don't care actually. That's so that's a nuance like and then I'm pushing taboos but bec not because I like pushing taboos but we just know I'm right. So when I rediscovered psychedelics first for myself it was based on me first before I did my first trip rediscovering the science of psychedelics and hopefully and I'm very happy about that and people say oh Christian did a great job with that but I told everybody but it's actually an easy job because I know they work right.

[1:03:39] Yeah. So, the last clip I wanted to round out on was Anger Meyer discussing a even bigger topic, aliens, and some of his contrarian beliefs about the potential for what aliens may or may not be. Here, we ended on aliens, except Christian doesn't think they're aliens at all. This is conspiracy corner. I'm very fascinated, obviously, hopefully everybody else, by all these alien stuff. Do you think they're real? I think there's something if we assume for a second there's something to always say alien in terms of this is a far away civilization which mastered light travel and came here now is maybe actually not the most obvious solution because like the jump to aliens is actually the not the logical one because if some race mastered light travel that feels too little advanced what we're seeing because if they that far that that far advanced they're like I think we wouldn't even see them.

[1:04:35] So, so and I just like I'm looking fascinated on quotes of Tucker Carlson or even JD Vance who are like maybe it's a more spiritual realm. Yeah. What did he say? He said he's fascinated by I can rewind it, but he said he's fascinated by the thoughts of people like JD Vance who think it's part of the spiritual realm. And Carl, I'm so disappointed because I was going to jump in and say at one point, well, at least he doesn't believe that they're like fallen archangels. And then he say I was like giving him a little credit in my mind and then he said this. So disappointing. Were like maybe it's a more spiritual realm. Yeah. Because that's what I personally believe. I think there is not just that we have a soul, not just that there is God, but like I think it's actually literally what all the religions are saying. There is a whole realm of when you go to like the core Christian ideas of hierarchy of angels and all of that.

[1:05:28] Like I think one thing I actually also believe as it could be a very at least a more rational argument than aliens from far away is could it be racist who had been here before? I'm a very big fan and he's a good friend of Graham Hanok. Yeah. Whoever Graham like he did the Netflix series ancient lost civiliz ancient civilization like he's so good at and he's getting more and more right by the way like in terms of archaeology like who's man this is the worst name dropping I've ever heard every person worse than it [laughter] I want to digitally crumble this up and throw it in the trash right now. This is so bad. There was a second where I was squinting my eyes and I was like, "Okay, I think I can actually maybe get behind where you might almost go with this."

[1:06:13] And then he started talking about being old races, you know, cuz like sure if there's it's the Nephilim, Mike. Yeah. Okay. Right. Of course. But like, you know, you can think of like plant spirits and beings and, you know, other realms or like, you know, interdimensional like I can maybe start to have a conversation about that. But where he went with it immediately was just out of control of certain. Yes. No, he just kept picking the worst people to be like, I love their opinion. That was why I wanted to clip this was because he dropped JD Vance, Tucker Carlson as two alien inspirations and then went on to talk about Graham Hancock and say he's just getting more and more right in archaeology. Meanwhile, Graham Hancock is like becoming more and more regarded as like the pseudo archaeologist extraordinaire.

[1:07:01] Yeah. No, there's no way that these ancient indigenous peoples could have built something majestic. It must have been aliens. [laughter] Well, I saw Graham Hancock present at Breaking Convention some years back, the psychedelics conference, and I remember he projected, you know, on the screen these like cave drawings or something, and he was going through this analysis and saying, "And obviously these are aliens." And I was just watching him and I was like, "What are you talking about? Like this is like you're just projecting stuff onto this picture." And I even spoke to one of the organizers, the conference organizers after that and I said, "Yeah, I wasn't really like persuaded by all of those Johnson inferences that this guy was making." And he was like, "Yeah, you know, we invited him because he's like a big name, you know, even the organizers."

[1:07:49] Yeah. So, even the organizers weren't like standing behind the analysis. I thought he was going to go to the obvious that it was like government experimental government what whatnot and didn't even do it. He didn't even take the layup the weirdest direction possible. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to site Tucker Carlson who said that demons bit me while I was sleeping at night while he sleeps with his dogs in his bed. Right. Made the jump. I do think it also kind of signals potentially a bit about the adjacency of the psychedelic field to the kind of like Christian revival sort of side of things where it's like the world is seen as kind of like caught in this spiritual warfare at the moment as we're kind of approaching this Armageddon like transformation.

[1:08:35] I think there's some of that. lean into Nisha's dumerism here. I'm going to say perhaps what they are doing is they are priming for the rapture which the rapture is the total elimination of their jobs and livelihoods and death camps. Like it could be a little bit of that rising up into the zapping field. Yeah, for sure. I also love like I love anytime somebody tries to explain a complex thought and then they give one minor detail and then say and everything else like he was just like you know I just think it's like all other religions have this idea of you know like Christianity and the hierarchy of angels and you know everything else and it's like what where are you getting at?

[1:09:21] I used to listen to UF UFO stuff back in whatever late 90s or early 2000s and this is like a direction that I really didn't expect things to go in that it's like it just like the whole angel the angel field it just does go to show how much Christian nationalism has borrowed in to just mainstream conversation how that was just really opened up through social media and independent in podcast that that we're even feeling the need to talk about this kind of is kind of crazy. Like if I talk to my dad about this, hey dad, you following the new UFO thing? So the new theory is that they're actually interdimensional angels in like spiritual [laughter] realms when the obvious thing is it's either just total disinfo or like online kind of hysteria that just sort of feeds back into itself.

[1:10:17] And I think there's a really cynical thing here is I think that there probably are people in the government that are looking to like juice the poly market because if there is an alien disclosure, those people gonna make whatever a huge amount. And I think they're kind of nudging in that direction. That's my own conspiracy which isn't even really a conspiracy anymore at this point. It's just like the insider trading and fraud is just so out in the open. Yeah. I we're in weird territory with this. I have seen some things written about the like that there are some billionaires that have like a niche pet interest and UFO stuff. And so the same lobbying money that's going into pushing psychedelics is also going into kind of lobbying the government about this disclosure stuff. But to Mike's point, I yeah, I do think that like what you said, I think it's a little interesting thread to pull on like in terms of sci-fi inquiry or something like that. whatever the guy hypothesis or [expletive] like that in that realm is is kind of cool.

[1:11:16] It's direction I would go in if I wanted to just do, you know, nerd out on some sci-fi type thing. Yeah, there's some interesting thought experiments around this kind of stuff. But I like the way that the masses are like, you know, these billionaires and these government officials have taken it are just so far off the mark that it's like but somehow still appealing, you know, to certain crowds that can perpetuate it. Anger Meyer is going to become more and more prominent, you know, as this, you know, approaching FDA approval potentially happens. And so we'll definitely stay kind of following the inevitable stuff that arises as he continues to speak out. Yeah, I didn't expect when we started covering him back in 2020, I really didn't expect or I didn't think he'd be around this long and yet he's turned into the most central like teal type figure that's really shaping this field.

[1:12:17] Well, Russ called that out, right? Yeah, I guess we did. I just I don't know. It's just kind of surprising that he's risen. He's gotten more with games and he hasn't just stayed in the psychedelics lane, I guess, is what I'm trying to say. Yeah. But between crypto, AI, the enhanced games, psychedelics, longevity research, like he's becoming more and more this face. And it was very surprising to me for a long time to not see him alongside like the Musks and Teals and people of the world kind of getting that media time. And so the one of the reasons I wanted to kind of spotlight this New York Times opinion piece opinion podcast was because this felt like one of his more high-profile interviews that I'd seen him in recently like that those interviews get shared a lot and kind of make the rounds on the internet.

[1:13:08] And so I wanted to really highlight that. But I think that's probably a good place to wrap it today. We've exhausted our anger Meyer fuel here. We'll see how he progresses into the future. Will he become our feudal lord one day? We shall see. Thanks everyone for being here and checking out these clips with me.