Psymposia x Bitter Karella: Queer Horror and Mushroom Magic

Psymposia senior writer Russell Hausfeld sits down with author Bitter Karella to discuss their debut novel "Moonflow," their micro-fiction and text adventure projects, psychedelic mushrooms, writing queer and trans horror stories, ritual magic and more.

Footnotes:

Midnight Pals Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/midnightpals.bsky.social
Bitter Karella's itch.io page: https://bitterkarella.itch.io/
Our Opinions Are Correct podcast: https://www.ouropinionsarecorrect.com/

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically from YouTube's captions, then cleaned up by removing filler words, repeated words and background sounds. It may still contain errors.

[00:10] I'm here today with Bitter Carella, the author of the new kind of psychedelic culty horror novel Moonflow, published earlier this year. It was one of my favorite reads of the year. Thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me today. Yeah, anytime. Thanks for having me. Yeah, my pleasure. Thinking about how to introduce this book. I thought some of the reviews in the beginning of the book did a great job of kind of giving readers an idea of what to expect. So I grabbed a few of my favorite ones. The first one, a triumph of queer, horny, hippie horror that'll make you cackle, gasp, and scream. Another, Carella has crafted the queer shroom trip from hell you didn't know you wanted. And then this one, I think maybe my personal favorite. Moonflow is equal parts ridiculous, revolting, and charming.

[00:58] It rockets you. It rockets into your psyche with drugfueled mommy milker cults at 200 m per hour, and I loved every second of it. You've got incredible reviews in the book. Everybody online from Reddit commenters to people I've read reviews of seems to love the book. As an elevator pitch, how do you describe the book to people? Oh. Well, the but basically what it's about is it is a story about a trans shroom dealer who gets lost in a haunted forest looking for a new kind of hallucinogenic mushroom and runs a foul of a hippie cult of lesbian separatists and the bound fungal nature gods they keep in their temple cellar.

[01:44] So it is Yeah, it's very psychedelic. It's very galo. It's got blood. It's got gore. It's got all the fluids. People of taste love it. That's, you know, so everyone Yeah. Everyone who knows anything, the smart people enjoy it, you know. Yes. That's what I've been telling people. Hearing any of those descriptions, how could you not want to read that, right? You should all go out and buy it today or failing that, you know, go to a library and get it. That's also that's good, though. Buying it is better. Yeah. No vested interest in saying that. Yeah, I couldn't get my copy bought in time, but I was checking with my local bookstore, so instead I grabbed it from the library, so I've got it sitting up there. Beautiful cover.

[02:30] Oh, yeah. Who did the cover art for you? It's absolutely awesome. Oh, it is so good. It is let's see. I don't want to get her name wrong. It's Lisa Marie Pompilio. She is kind of one of the in-house cover designers for Orbit, Run for It, and she just did an amazing job with this. Honestly, when I you know, when I gave this book to them, I kind of thought like this is there's no way they can do a cover for this book. There's no way that anything is going to work. It's a little bit weird. I mean, honestly, I'll just say like every step of this the process with this book, I was convinced that like there's no way that like there's no way that I'm gonna get an agent to want to represent this and there's no way that any publisher is going to want to buy this and then there's, you know, there's no way they'll be able to like package it, right?

[03:18] But it's worked out every step. Because it's just that good. But yeah, the cover is very they really got the vibe I wanted. I really wanted this to feel like a 70s kind of psychedelic blacklight poster and yeah, it looks like it should glow under the correct circumstances and it actually does. I've tried it. I have a black light so so it's perfect for that and it also it's just it's I love the cover because it's so abstract but also when you read the book it's like oh yeah I know exactly what that is. That makes perfect sense. So it's so on point. Yeah, it's incredible. Backtracking a little bit, before we discuss more about the actual book.

[04:04] This was your debut novel, but I know you've been involved in writing projects prior to this. And some very interesting ones at that between some interesting like short stories. I listened to some at least one of your pseudopod stories I think the other day. Which it was a podcast I grew up loving. So, I was like, "Oh my gosh, Vader Carella has a pseudopod story. That's cool." And the reader for that was so good, too. Was it like Halloween blood something? Oh, yeah. Wild voice. This deep kind of husky voice. Not the voice I would have expected for that story, but like it is. It definitely gives it a very certain kind of vibe. I think that's I'm guessing the story was a lonely vigil I think is the one that's on pseudapod.

[04:53] Yeah. Yeah. which also is kind of related to Moonflow because of a very similar origin for that story to Moonflow. So yeah, you've been involved in the Oh, sorry. Go on. Oh, I was just going to say it's like it's an I guess it's the topic of this podcast, you know, is is related to that because it also involves you know, for entertainment purposes, I'll just say you know, not that I'm actually confessing to the to any sort of you know substance use, but like you know, in h in theory, hypothetically, it might have involved some of that. So anyway, sorry. No, I love it. But yeah, you've so you've got the short stories. I know you've got some comics out there. And then kind of these really interesting kind of alt media projects.

[05:41] One that really seems to have gained a lot of traction is the Midnight Pals microfiction. Can you talk a little bit about what that is and how that started? Sure. So, Midnight Pals is basically a it started as a Twitter microfiction account. Now, it's mostly Blue Sky. And it's basically what if all your favorite horror writers were to gather around the campfire and tell scary stories like in are you afraid of the dark? So it's like kind of and it makes fun of various horror writers but like you know if you imagine like a baby versions of Stephen King and Dean Coons and Clyde Barker kind of talking and joking around and that that kind of started because I've always been a horror fan but my wife was reading some Dean Coun and she was like she didn't enjoy him.

[06:28] She was like, "This is," She came to me and was like, "This feels like I'm reading " Well, she showed it to me and I was like, "Yeah, you're right. It's it kind of has a Goosebumps feel." And she was like, "It's more like Are You Afraid of the Dark?" And then I was like, "Oh, that's funny. What if Dean Coun was actually on Are You Afraid of the Dark?" And I just kind of started making jokes about that. And it kind of caught on and went a little viral. So, I was like, "Oh, okay. Well, I'll just keep making I've gotten more jokes. I know lots of horror writers." And it kept going. So eventually I spun it off into its own thing and it kind of it's done very well for me. I eventually I self-published three collections of Midnight Pal's micro fiction on Indiegogo. Then I collaborated with Robin Johnson, an old friend from my text adventure days on doing an audio podcast which has I think we're just finishing the second season of that.

[07:25] And that has been a lot of fun. It's just an amazing cast of people who really elevate the material because I mean I've listened to a lot of, you know, kind of dramatic audio podcasts and they're good ones, but there also a lot where it just has a very flat feel and I've been very fortunate that everyone who works on this one just really brings the characters to life. And so, so that's been a lot of fun. And, I'm just, I'm, you know, I'm just really gratified that, you know, people like it as much as they do. And it's, it's allowed me to actually, you know, meet a whole bunch of horror writers. So I got to meet a lot of my heroes, which is nice. Yeah, that's awesome. I in preparation, I've read through a lot of the threads and I listened to a couple of episodes of the podcast series, and it was it's very funny and kind of adorable, too.

[08:16] Like, I love it. The image that sticks out to me in my head is kind of like militant goth Mary Shelly showing up to like the mansion with like the two [expletive] boys like Percy Shelly and Lord Byron behind her. Like I want to draw a picture of that. What's up [expletive] Mary Shelly, you're here too. You nerds were having a party. Ooh, I see you brought your boyfriends. Hello. Did I say you could talk? Hi guys, this is Byron and Percy. It is so funny. Mary Shelly really became a fan favorite of Midnight Pals, which is a funny thing cuz, you know, when I was writing it, yeah, usually when I kind of try to make fun of writers, I'm like, okay, I mean, their characterizations in Midnight Pals have not a lot to do with the actual people, but I try to get it like what their vibe is and kind of what they feel like.

[09:10] So, Stephen King is kind of like a doofy dad and Dean [expletive] just becomes like a little kid. And Mary Shelly just kind of became this very like you this kind of badass goth girl. Which I think is actually kind of I mean if you read about her life it's like yeah this actually kind of tracks that's kind of Yeah, for sure. For sure. you know, she's like you know, when you read about her like oh yeah, having you know, sex on her mom's grave and carrying around her boyfriend's like, you know, blood in a vial, it's a very like Aussie Osborne type stuff. So, so she was like, you know, she's a lot of fun to write. I kind of have to use her sparingly because she's a little like animal on the Muppets. She kind of just shows up to break stuff. So, you know, sometimes like Yeah.

[09:57] Yeah. But it's part of the bit in writing these things. But yeah, I love it. It's a really fun project. Has comedically kind of embodying these famous horror writers helped you think about your own horror writing or helped you kind of, I don't know, analyze that meta part of horror and the different things that horror writers bring to the table? I mean, I definitely like it. It definitely helps me think a lot more about dialogue especially when I'm writing because I'm kind of a very description heavy writer and I can just go like on and on and on and kind of forget and I wouldn't say that character building is really my strength at least not naturally. So, when I started doing Midnight Pals and I had to rely on only character dialogue to really establish who these characters are to the point that like people reading it can kind of, if you've read it long enough, a lot of the jokes just rely on you knowing, you know, what the character is like and having an image in

[10:58] Your head. So that was really kind of a very quick education I guess because you know I've been writing for a long time and I think that really I mean not to pat myself on the back but I feel like doing Midnight Palace has really helped me understand a lot more how to get into characters heads and really work with characters which honestly is like really what writing is all about because you know if you read you can read like a book that's all description and it's like well that's kind of boring. there's no human element to it. So, really getting into the human, you know, the humans involved is really what makes a book sing. So, I mean, I don't know that I would be where I am today, if I hadn't, you know, lucked into Midnight Pals, and getting that to work for me.

[11:46] That's awesome. It's been really fun to kind of dive into it. It's been really fun to read Moonflow and then realize you kind of have this backlog of really fun work to start engaging with. And one of those things I was really thrilled to discover as I was prepping for this interview was your itch.io page. And I've really fallen down this rabbit hole of these text adventure games that you've made. Specifically All Visitors Welcome and Toad Stools. Both which take place in the same setting as Moonflow. So I wanted to ask about those. I guess first how did you get into these text adventure games? And is there like I didn't realize there was such a culture around this online and then did Moonflow kind of evolve from the series of text adventure games?

[12:35] Yeah. So, I got into text adventures because I'm very old and I, you know, when I was growing up, like that I played a lot of I guess mostly Sierra and Lucas Arts style point-and-click adventure games, but I also played some older ones that were just text like Zork or ones that were more text heavy like the Time Quest and Sorcerers Get All the Girl series. So I' I've I do have a kind of a love for that style of game. And I found out because I had a friend who used to they would enter they were writing text games and they would enter them into if comp and things like competitions like that. And so I thought, hey, I could do that too. So that's kind of where I got started on just getting into that. With so all visitors welcome and well I when I started doing text games I really liked using the medium for horror because I feel like there's something in it that really works well because you

[13:36] Know it's all text there's you know you're getting very just involved in there there's no visuals there's no sound so you really are just relying on text and very often like you know by slowly fully doing out information to kind of build an atmosphere. So I found it like kind of a natural medium for that genre. And so when I did cuz Toad Steels especially, which is a Twine game, I really like the way that you can play around with like you click on a link and get one sentence and you click to go to another and you get it very slowly, which kind of builds this very like a kind of almost claustrophobic oppressive atmosphere because you're not getting a lot of information.

[14:23] And so that was kind of that that was, you know, really where I liked that aspect of it. And All Visitors Welcome is a it's a parser game, so it's a little more traditional like picking up objects and using them. and that I feel like it doesn't lend itself as well because it's less narrative, but I really kind of was trying to get it something similar where you're get you're the atmosphere of just being alone in a place and very getting information very slowly as you uncover things and seeing how that could be used to kind of build an ambiencece. Now both of those are so all visitors welcome is actually based on my that's so that's basically like that's my old job basically.

[15:12] I used to work in a state park. I was a not a park ranger technically but like an interpretive specialist was the term that I had basically teaching kids about pine cones. But so a lot of All Visitors Welcome came from my experiences in that job and just kind of running a visitor center alone out in the boonies and just kind of the culture of the California park system which is this very like it's a very weird combination of you know you get like the way it works. So, it's funny because it's kind of like if you ever read Game of Thrones, you know, they go to the wall. They have the brother the what is it? The brotherhood up there where they have the three kinds.

[15:58] They've got the rangers, the stewards, and the builders. And California State Parks is basically the same thing. They've got rangers who are law enforcement. They've got interpreters who are educational, and then they've got maintenance who just, you know, fix stuff. And so these three very distinctive park cultures that don't that mesh very weirdly I've noticed. But like yeah I had to deal with a lot of you know as an interpreter I dealt with a lot of like weird park ranger bureaucracy there which also kind of comes into Moonflow a little bit too. It does. It does. Yeah. Yeah. Because when I actually started writing Moonflow, I knew, you know, I was going to do I was trying to write a horror book and I was a I kind of just thought like, well, I've already written some horror games.

[16:44] What if I, you know, I could draw from that? So, they kind of became fleshed out and eventually became the they were the seed for Moonflow. Oh, that's so cool to hear. Reading them, I was like, "Oh my gosh, I had this is such like a wealth of information." like toad stools, you start with the mushroom in your hand and like not knowing where you were. And I was like, "Oh, hey, that that hits on those some of the same things that happen in Moonflow." Where did the story of Moonflow start for you and when did you know you wanted to make this into kind of a novel project as opposed to a text game or a short story or a different kind of writing? Okay. Well, I was kicking around the idea for a long time for Moonflow and it was something that was kind of I was working on the back burner.

[17:29] I always want I always wanted to, you know, be a writer and I've been doing short stories for a while. So, I kind of thought like I can do something bigger. I can do this. So, I I've been working on it for a while. It I pretty much was figured like well, you know, you write what you know. So I was taking a lot from a lot of moonflow came from my work at state parks. So I draw on that a lot. Also just living in Northern California. I live kind of up in the hippie woods of Northern California. So this is an area where you have this again a very weird mix of like granola freaks but also like militia dudes. And it's just it's weird because like you know you go out to a lot of these towns and it's all like you know like it's everyone has like a Gadston flag and like Tibetan prayer flags and it's like that is a combination that does not seem like it

[18:30] Should be but that's kind of this area. So that was like you know a big part of it and at the same time also like while I was writing this I was kind of coming to terms with a lot of things of my own gender. When I first started this project I was still identifying as cisgender and by the end I was I now identif identify as gender fluid. So so a lot of my thoughts on that also kind of ended up in Moonflow and kind of becoming what Moonflow was all about. Though originally I think I was not planning on that. I kind of thought like that would make this book too obscure, too weird. It was like there's no one who's going to like gel with that. Especially but then at some but then like as I was kicking this around some fortuitous things happened actually.

[19:23] I was nominated for a Fan Hugo award which was very cool. It was for Midnight Pals and that was at Chicago World Con. So I basically said, "Well, this is never going to happen again, so I'm going to go out to Chicago for this." So I was out there and while I was there, I happened I met John Baker, who is an agent with Bel Lomax Moritan. And he basically we he knew me from Midnight Pals. So he was like, "Hey, come why, you know, why don't you come to the bar? I'll get you a drink." And I was kind of thinking like, oh, I know what this is because he's an agent and he's represents some horror writers. So, obviously he wants me to like goof on them in Midnight Pals, you know, get a little extra publicity, you know, and I was kind of like I was feeling very like, you know, oh, I'm I I'm a pretty big wheel, I guess.

[20:17] Feeling pretty good about that. So, we, we were at the hotel bar and John was like, he's British, so he can really hold his liquor, but so he was like, you know, I was like, "Ah, another pint, a pint." And I was like I was completely like sloshed after like a thimble because I'm a real lightweight. So, I was just I was probably like just completely slurring and embarrass embarrassing myself and being a lush. But John mentioned that he would be interested if I had anything, you know, to look at. And I kind of assumed like, oh, this guy is just blowing smoke up my ass. There's no way that he would actually be interested. I'm a you know, I'm just a goofball.

[21:03] But, you know, but, I sent him, you know, some of the early, stuff I had from Moonflow, and he was actually, you know, really keen on it. He really believed in it. Thought it had something there. And I was like, "Oh [expletive] now I actually have to do it." I didn't realize what I was getting into. So then I was putting it together and as I was putting it together you know I was that's when I really got serious about trying to turn it into something that would be readable. spot. And the early drafts were I they weren't working because I think they were I was really trying to make something that would be palatable for the general audience.

[21:49] And I was like and I my initial thought was, you know, there's so much stuff that I can't put in here because it would just people would not get it. So much stuff about like my own personal gender journey, but also my experiences with hypothetical experiences with psychedelics. But at some point I was just like, you know what? I may never get another shot at this. I might as well go for the gusto. And I just ended up putting it all in there. And I figured like, well, you know, John, here you go. Good luck with this. So, John and also Julie Julie Garinius. So they went out and they sold the book, which is amazing. I did not expect that to actually happen.

[22:35] But you know what? They are amazing and it's just you know and then it did go through some more drafts because I worked a lot with Angelica Chong at my editor at Orbit and she really helped to massage this into something that is is it's something that is that I think readers will get like it's it makes it a little more like I said it's more digestible but at the same time she really understood what I was getting for and she did not like censor my voice at all. Like she let really let me just vomit on the page and she was like, "Okay, let's make this into let's make this the best vomit we can."

[23:21] And so she's really like I really owe her a lot of huge debt for like making Moonflow into what it is today. She really like helped, you know, birth this baby, I guess you could say. Love to hear that. that that's so interesting hearing your own personal kind of growth while writing the novel because it's so I mean the main character is a transwoman and the kind of cult that she encounters is this sort of I don't know some of them I guess are more turfy than others kind of separatist like lesbian cult and like there's so much like fun playing with like gender roles and gender and queerness in this book.

[24:09] So that's fascinating to hear and the psychedelic stuff. I actually discovered the novel on an episode of a sci-fi writing podcast a sci-fi fantasy podcast called Our Opinions Are Correct. And they actually I think they just put out their last episode for a while. But it's a great podcast, huge backlog, but they were giving these recommendations on like great new queer horror writing. And Moonflow obviously made that list. I am now just loving this recent wave of horror fiction that centers marginalized people and is explicitly an assault on like exploitation and capitalism and settler colonialism among other things. Do you think that do you have thoughts on writing themes of queerness or queer characters in horror and does horror lend any benefits or challenges to writing on those topics?

[25:04] I think like, write horror is is a really good, lens for writing about queerness because obviously, you know, there's a long history of queerness being kind of monsterized and the monsters queer. It's this we you know it is a thing that people that is you know very very you know threatening to normal society and traditionally you know so themes of querness which even if you can't do overtly in previous year decades you'd have to kind of stick in there in a way that like you know the general audience might not pick up on but you know the people who are sponging what you're spilling will. And also very often you have to you would have to be to get around censorship.

[25:49] Very often queerness would have to be depicted if it was at all in kind of a negative light. You know like you look a lot of older works especially Pulp where they're like look we can't put in any of this gay sex unless we say it's bad to do this. This is actually an instructive book. It's educational. It teaches you why you know being a lesbian is actually bad and you shouldn't do it. And you know, the real the reader who reads it like is going to be like, "Oh, yeah. This is totally hot. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I'm learning a lot here." It's kind of like, you know, reading Playboy for not Playboy. You know, National Geographic for the pictures, I guess. So, and Moonflow especially, I think like one of the things that I or like, that I really like about queer horror is, you know, I think with a lot of like it's not this isn't not necessarily bad at all, but you know, a lot of writing about queerness and, right now you see like a lot of there's

[26:49] A lot of romance and romantic and you know, and things geared for young adults, and that's great. I it's great that those exist and are out there, but very often they're very clean. You know, they're very squeaky clean. Especially if there's, you know, a lot of authors are kind of like worried about depicting queer characters in anything that might be considered like a negative light because especially considering the times we live in right now where a lot of, you know, there are a lot of bad faith readers who will latch on to that one way or another, you know, who will either say like, "Oh, you're saying you're being homophobic or transphobic or queer phobic by putting this in there." Or other people saying like, "Ah, see, look at this bad depiction. It proves that they're all bad." So, so there's I think like a real drive a lot of writers to kind of self-censor that and to just present the squeakiest clean the blandest sort of characters.

[27:44] And I like horror because horror you kind of have permission to put in really [expletive] up shitty characters who are just more inherently interesting. You know, you read it and you're like, "Oh, these characters are really shitty." Well, they're supposed to be. It's a horror book. Think bad things are going to be happening. And I mean that is like a big thing in Moonflow because when I was writing it, I was like, I really want these characters to be difficult to sympathize with. At least cuz one of the things like Sarah, the main character, this is a thing like when I was first writing the book and I was trying to write a transwoman character, I was like, "Okay, you know, okay, I don't know, this is going to sound, you know, weird, but like a lot of times when trans people are discussing gender with to sis people and they have to make it so the cis people understand or get it or grock it or however you want to say it, they'll be like, "Okay, well, spiritually I'm some other gender or like I know in my soul this or that.

[28:44] And that may be the way that some people experience it. For me, it wasn't that way. I've always just kind of it's more about understanding like a social role and also, you know, how I want to present and ideas about how my body should be. So when I, so at first I was kind of thinking like, okay, I'm trying to pres have the main character think of gender in this way that is palatable, but it's not working because it doesn't speak to me, and this just feels like I'm trying to like write an educational tract. And so eventually I was like, I'm going to try and make this so that it's actually slightly difficult to sympathize with. So cis readers will be challenged a little bit.

[29:32] So instead the main character just wants enormous tits. That's her motivation in transition. I was thinking of the conversations with her and Andy in the woods and they're like they're so good. It's very funny because like a lot of I will say this, like I've had a few cis readers who are just like this seems like horribly transphobic and also like sexist and like just you know I don't know what the person wants. She wants tits. That's weird. And I've had a lot of trans readers who are like, "Oh, this is this totally this is this scans. This seems right." It's like, "Fuck it. That's her experience. That's what she wants." You know, it's I feel like I'll just say that I feel like it's a more common experience than people generally let on.

[30:25] But you know, everyone's different. Everyone's different. So but yeah like so there's a lot of that and also like one some of the things that like I definitely know that like when I was writing this book there's another character in this that's been very controversial. There's a member of the cult called Pickles who is he pickles is the only assigned male at birth member of this feminist cult. He's always referred to with male pronouns in the book, but he's a unic. He's been castrated and he's kind of the toad for the cult leader. And I kind of when I was writing Pickles, it was this idea of like, you know, there's how I kind of wanted it to be indicative of how like, you know, cults don't make a lot of sense. they will change their the leader will change their own rules depending on their whims and everyone just kind of goes along with it because the leader so that

[31:26] Was part of that and also just the idea of like how very often like people who don't fit in or don't kind you know who can't come to terms with their own self will end up kind of in these positions of like sublimating themselves through a more powerful person who kind of like becomes their you know their literal cult leader in this case. But like I've gotten, you know, some people have just, you know, been like read pickles and been like this, you know, this seems very like ambophobic. Cuz, you know, and it's like, well, you know, you're not wrong. It's not a very positive depiction of a character. But that I feel like that is part of horror is is having this ambiguity that it it's you know it part of horror is have sitting with discomfort and I like the idea of having characters that you can't quite pin down.

[32:22] They're not easy to really figure out what they're all about. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. And what you said about the kind of cult leader dynamics there. There were so many times I was actually discussing this with my partner who read the book too and was a huge fan. And one of our favorite things was the way Mother Moonflow would kind of consistently like encourage certain behaviors or say things were okay and then when things maybe didn't go her way or something kind of flip and all of a sudden it was their fault or it was it like the person who she had encouraged was like in the wrong or something all of a sudden like I'm thinking of one scene during like a big ceremony in particular.

[33:09] Where she kind of welcomes Sarah in and then Sarah was in the wrong. But yeah, that's really interesting. And then I I've got a couple other themes listed here too to jump on and one of them like we had already talked about is kind of this psychedelic mushroom theme. There's a lot of micology in both Moonflow and the Toad Stools game and from like these homegrow setups in Sarah's apartment to like this range of psychoactive effects that can be achieved from these mushrooms to I think one of my favorite additions in Toad Stool was the pharmaceutical company's like mushroom field guide. I thought that was a funny addition that it's written by this pharmaceutical company that definitely won't pay $100 per fruing body for like the king's breakfast mushroom or something like that.

[34:05] When did the kind of fascination with mushrooms begin? Is there anything you want to nerd out about around mushrooms? Sure. So okay, so again I guess this is all hypothetical, right? For entertainment purposes. But you know basically I started getting interested in mushrooms you know because of because yeah I had some friends who have done them and be like oh it's a fun time and I was just reading in general and I was like you know I'm a I'm I've I'm a pretty straight edge guy. I haven't done a lot of stuff but like I'm interested in expanding in my mind and learning more about the universe and seeing what this is. So that's you know so that's pretty common I think with interest in that.

[34:52] I don't know much about like actual micology or the study of mushrooms though they are like weird and fascinating cuz they are so like different from anything else. When I but I so I'm trying to think like how did I actually get into them? Well I guess also like with mushrooms like when I've I guess like I start getting them because I've you know I've tried them the mushrooms you know you eat them and hypothetically again and they then you suddenly they are I'd say psychedelics are a very powerful tool you know there's so much potential there I think for learning about yourself and the world and everything just because you know we all have walls in our minds and you know you build them

[35:52] Over the course of your life. You have to your mind creates them to protect you from the pain of you know your own subconscious and all that stuff. And there's a lot of substances that you can take that will kind of break down those walls and make you come face to face with you know your inner self and all that. This is very like stereotypical like hippie talk. Which is why when I first did it I was like I was very much like oh yeah I know what all this is. This is you know this is exactly what I would have expected. you know, it's all that kind of Freudian stuff that like you know that that you expect that when you experience it when you meet a hippie and he's like man you got to expand your mind and it's like a lot of that.

[36:38] So, but at the same time, I found it is kind of true because like it really does allow you to see with a new perspective like you see so much about you understand that so much of the way we think of the world is very blinkered and you know that's by the human mind does it by design for its own protection and it can be very liberating and very enlightening to you know kind of see over those walls and you know sometimes it's going to be kind of scary and I would venture and say like it can be dangerous just because you know those walls are there for your protection and for society as well and sometimes busting them down can like leave you in a very bad state.

[37:26] But you know for me it was very like my experience with mushrooms is kind and psychedelics is kind of tied into well it's tied into a lot of things but it is kind of tied into my experiences with gender as well because you know that that's something that like that I've been dealing with for a while and being with psychedelics One of the things that I remember very distinctly was okay sorry this is kind of a rambling answer. I apologize. No, it's totally fine. Okay. So so I don't know how much this will make sense but like because I also dabble a little bit in ritual magic.

[38:13] Okay. You know, which is I mostly a thing that I do for fun because I was kind of like I would get like you know, I would be reading books on ceremonial magic and be like, "Oh, it'd be cool if this was real. It'd be cool." You know, but and they all Yeah. You know, I'll be like, "Oh, it's nice." And all the books just say like, you know, I read they're all made for people who believe in it. And I don't believe in it. I was kind of like, "This is not real. It's fun to do, but it's not real." And the books just say, "Well, we'll do the magic and eventually becomes real." And I was like, "Whatever." Okay. But you know, but I was I would be doing that. And you know, often times when you're doing magic, there are psychoactive substances involved. You know, traditionally people will use all sorts of things for ritual purposes.

[39:02] But I was using psychedelics for ritual purposes basically. And what I what happened was I realized so magic doesn't work. It's not real, right? But it's also if you think about what magic is, it's not like you can't scientifically test it, right? There's no it doesn't it's not doesn't conform to any physical laws or anything. It's you know so you know these like James Randy can't come and disprove magic because how would you disprove magic? It's it doesn't you know it's it doesn't conform to any known laws or anything. It's just thing out in the ether right. So then I realized okay you technically cannot disprove that magic exists.

[39:51] You can't prove that it does either. It's unfalsifiable. But that means the only reason that I was like ma think can say magic isn't real is because I live in a rational post-enlightenment world where we've all agreed that magic isn't real and doesn't work. It's just a quorum of people agree on this. It doesn't work. It's not real. But if we lived in a if I lived in the Middle Ages where we all agreed magic is real, then for all intents and purposes it's real. There's no difference. you it's just it's all in your head, you know. So so I realized that it was like holy [expletive] you know, magic is like real, man. The only thing that like that that I thought it wasn't real because I thought it wasn't real, man.

[40:36] But it's real. Except it's one of those things where it's doesn't work. It doesn't work, it's not real, and yet it also is real because it's all in your head. Okay. So that's Yeah. Yeah. So that's like I'm, you know, it's very like did I just blow your mind? But anyway, so I was like meaning making. It's kind of like what you assign to it there. Like how Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. It's a sort of thing that like if you get it. Otherwise, you just sound like a crazy person. So I'm hoping that you know I'm hoping that the listeners are like, "Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense." But anyway, so so I had that revelation and I also realized, oh, what if I applied the same principle to gender because I've just been thinking like obviously I am a cis man.

[41:24] How do I know I'm a sis man? I've always been a cis man. I've lived in this body my entire life. I've always thought I was a sis man. How could I be anything different other than the thing that I thought I was? It is inconceivable. And then I realized, well, the only reason that I am sis or think I am sis is because I think I am sis. There is literally no reason for me to think that. And you know, there's nothing inherent in the universe that that that determines that. It is entirely my own inner thoughts on that. And at that point, I was just like, "Oh, okay. Well, at the time actually, I was more like when I first had this revelation, my first thought was like, "This is really annoying cuz now I'm probably going to have to go to a doctor and talk about transitioning and this is going to be a real thing.

[42:17] This is going to be really annoying to deal with." So you know but so there was a lot involved in like kind of coming to like figuring out where I was and what I wanted and what I needed in that sense. But like the first thought was very much like it was very much tied up with like the like I said my psychedelic experience which allowed me to realize so much about what I've always thought about myself in my life is just self-imposed. like I built walls in my own head and then I looked at those walls and I said those walls have always been here. They've naturally occurred therefore that must be the way things are. And this experimentation with psychedelics was really the way that I figured out like a lot of that is not true.

[43:05] Obviously, some things, some walls are there for a reason. Some walls are there maybe even naturally, but a lot of these are ones that that I just put there because, you know, you're raised in society and you just start unconsciously doing this sort of thing and going along with it and being like, well, society says this and I'm, you know, I got a neurotypical brain that says I should do whatever the group is doing and go along with that. So, and it's only when you really start to kind of think about, okay, maybe, maybe there's more to me than like just a cog in society. Well, peek over the wall a little bit and be like, is this here for my protection actually, or is this keeping me from somewhere?

[43:53] Because some it might be one or the other. Like you might leave up a wall for protection and you might tear it down when you realize this was self this was not beneficial or something. Yeah, absolutely. It's one of those things where I realized at that point like I mean I should say this is going to sound incredibly naive but like I started realizing oh okay this is part of why queerness and transness and all and any sort of alternative sexuality is so threatening to so many people because it's because you know when I was just identifying as sis it was like I don't really get why people are so threatened by that. It's just why some people should be able to do it. It's fine. Why? Why is that a problem? But then once I realized it's because it's someone has knocked down that wall and other people like if you knock down one wall, how many other walls are going to fall?

[44:44] And people get very nervous about that, you know? So I so suddenly I realized like okay I mean I can see through the eyes of a trans phobe now I guess. Which is weird but like you know I don't agree with them. I'm just saying is like suddenly I'm like okay now I get why I get to some extent why people are so like psychotically frightened by this sort of thing. Sure. Yeah. I do also think have noticed that like I do think that there are that that at least in my experience it is kind of like almost like that that there there is definitely kind of this like ven diagram of like okay ritual magic transess and psychedelic use somehow th that those things I've noticed with a lot of people seem to like interests collide.

[45:37] Yeah. And it's like, "Oh, gee, I wonder. Okay, I see how these are all connected at this point. They all involve kind of like, yeah, again, breaking down those walls and realizing that like, okay, there's a lot more to reality than this very blinkered vision that like we've been gifted by, you know, our parents and teachers." Again, this is get this is very like you know, hippie 101, I think. But I'm sure that like a lot of the listeners who are probably pretty who are in theory hypothetically experienced psychonauts will be like yeah no [expletive] Sherlock but no it's great though I think it's a really cool intersection and if there was something that also kind of laid at the intersection of that ven diagram I feel like moonflow is like encapsulation of ritual magic psychedelics and transness u in this really cool way where how what was the period of writing this?

[46:36] How long was it? And because it's almost sounds like a perfect like encapsulation of a lot of the themes that you were maybe grappling with or dealing with while you were writing it. Yeah, it probably oh gosh, it was about it was a couple years total. I mean it was probably about a year to get the first draft and really have something there. And then there was a lot of, you know, process with having it on submission and then, you know, a few rounds of edits. But like the main book was about a year, I think, of work. And it definitely like a lot of the psychedelic experiences in the book are were me trying to explain my own experiences that I had had because if you've ever again hypothetically you know done psychedelics, it's a very it's very difficult to explain afterwards what it's like.

[47:37] It's just it's such a unique experience that like when you try to explain it, you realize you know like you realize like oh I am no long I guess what I should say is like when you do a magic ritual you know a lot of magic rituals they involve this idea of limonality you know you are you start the ritual you're one person you go through this experience and then you emerge at the other end and you are no longer the same person you have been fundamentally changed by the experience and the during the ritual is the liinal space where you're neither one or the other. You're not the same person you were before but you're not yet the person you will be. So this is this weird zone where you're kind of you know it's things are kind of messy and this is where kind of magic happens.

[48:26] And you could apply this to a lot of things in life like you'd say like okay if you know if you're going to have your bar mitzvah at what point during the bar mitzvah are you know you start the veritz as a boy you end it as a man at what point in the ritual does that change happen and you know anything any sort of ritual that we go through whether it's a wedding a birthday anything kind of has that that tension in it yeah totally yeah and a psyched Psychedelic experience is very much like that because you start it as one thing as and when you end it when you've been through it you realize I have been in some very small way fundamentally changed by this experience. I'm no longer that same person.

[49:13] I am the same but I'm also different. And that is something where when you're talking to someone who hasn't gone through that, it's it sounds like an insane thing to say. Like it's how do you get someone who hasn't been through that to really understand? Right. I had a because this is I I'll say this is kind of a funny story. But I'll tell it. I don't know how much time we have so I apologize for rambling. I got plenty of time. It's kind of How much time do you have? Yeah. Cool. Oh, good. Good. Well, I love to talk. So, we got So, I I'll keep going. So, I did this I had a this one a while back when I was first getting used to the idea of taking substances for specifically for ritual purposes.

[50:00] And I wasn't as careful as I should be. I made some pot brownies, right? Actually, I can talk about that because that's legal where I am. So, but I'll still say hypothetically in case things change. So, I made some so hypothetically made some pop brownies. I didn't know much about it, but I was like, I think it I think this cannabis butter is probably a onetoone with in the recipe with this weird cannabis goo that I got. So, I'll just use that. And, you know, I made the brownies. I had a brownie. I don't feel anything. I'll have a second brownie. Not feeling anything. I'll just take an edible. So then you know and then I basically had left my body turned to every cartoon character.

[50:45] I was on a submarine at the bottom of the ocean. All this stuff was happening. Eventually I kind of I went to bed because I was just like I thought after a few hours I was like I think I'm back. I think it's normal. I went to bed and soon as I got in bed, I had every single sleep paralysis experience. I had the shadow people come. I had the aliens come down and abduct me. I had like a witch come and ride me to a witch's sabbat. Like demons were in the room. Everything. But and at one point like an incubus came and was like sitting on me and you and I was kind and I was [expletive] an incubus and my wife was like woke up and she was like, you know, I got work in the morning. you're really being you're really making a lot of noise. And I was just like, I don't know what to tell you.

[51:32] I'm [expletive] Incubus right now. And she was like, well, if I turn you on your side, will that help? And I was like, maybe. So, she flipped me over. At which point, the incubus just starts spooning me instead. And I was like, all right, that's fine. But anyway, all this crazy stuff happened and the day before when I had done this ritual, I had basically I had done like a little like ritual with candles and a little circle. And I was like, you know what? I want to have I want to have an experience. I want to experience the ethereal spiritual nature of the universe. I don't really want to get anything out. I just want to know that there's something out there. I want to journey through the night and emerge into the daylight afterwards. I think that was part of the things I was doing a little chant that I had found in a book of folkloric magic.

[52:24] Anyway, so this whole thing happens and the next morning I remember waking up and just thinking like it happened. I journeyied through the night through the darkness of despair and demonic hell and all that and I have emerged the next day and I'm still alive. And it was I won't it's an interesting thing because like I don't know that I got anything out of that experience that is tangible. Like I haven't I didn't learn any important lesson from it. And yet when I think of that experience I'm very it's very clear to me that like I think of that as something where there was my life before that experience and my life after it. And it's hard to pin down exactly, you know, like I I'm, you know, I don't know that anything I couldn't point to anything that changed.

[53:16] I couldn't point to one thing about me that is different now than was before that. But at the same time, I just feel like that was something that I feel like, you know, having gone, you cannot go through something like that and the next day just be like, "Oh, yeah. Everything's the same. I don't, you know, I'm nothing's different." It's something that just by its nature, you having experienced it, you are different now. And I guess I mean that's true for everything in life. Every experience you have changes you and makes you into a different version of yourself. It's just that you know a lot of psychedelic ones it happens real fast and real like you know you're suddenly like oh okay. Because afterwards I was trying to I was basically telling my wife about this whole thing right.

[54:02] I was like they were like it was crazy. They were like demons and like witches and aliens and I was all over the place. And she was like, "Wow, that sounds terrible." And I was like, "No, you don't. No, it wasn't terrible. It was actually like you know, it was unpleasant while it was happening, but at the same time kind of thrilling and just like you know, it just afterwards I was just like that was an incredible experience." And very often I think of it and I'm like it would be kind of cool to experience that again. But then whenever I think about it, I was like, "No, actually, it was not fun. It was not good. I'm not actually gonna I'm not going to chase that again. It's going to be like I've been there. Yeah, I've been there. You know, we don't have to go back." Yeah. It's one of those things where when you are having a difficult trip, it's not good.

[54:50] You know, like afterwards, you know, you kind of afterwards with the with hindsight and like the benefit of time and you kind of think more of it and like what maybe you were getting out of it, what it what your brain might have been trying to teach you and you can kind of get stuff out of it and a lot of the unpleasant stuff kind of fades from memory, but like you know at the same time like you know cuz you know there are times when I'm like oh yeah that was kind of fun and Then sometimes I'll like take something and I can feel it going that way again. I'm like, "Oh, no, no, no, no. That's not what I wanted." No. I will say that like, you know, so it's definitely something that but yeah, I will say like because I had, you know, I a friend who was very kind of like very judgy about my thing because they were like, "Why do you do this if you have such a bad time?"

[55:47] And it's like, well, it's hard to explain because, you know, if you haven't gone through it, you know, first of all, you know, you don't really you can't really explain it. But also, they were all very much like, oh, well, you know, cuz when you because they were making fun of me for having a bad trip and like, you know, what what's wrong with you? And then they had one and afterwards I was like, yeah, now see what it's like, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because yeah it is definitely like you know it can be if when you're in the thick of that sort of thing it is one of the most frightening things. It is you know oh terrifying like you just think like this is you know cuz I remember like when I there's times when I was you know in that that that we situation where like demons are attacking me and everything and I was just like I was convinced oh I broke my brain.

[56:46] I am the first person who took too much weed and broke their brain and it will be like this forever. And you know I was on I was literally trying to look up online like can you know can you go insane from weed and could barely Yeah. Yeah. Which of course doesn't make it better. You just start thinking worse things. And it was like everything was saying no you can't. And I was like what if I'm the first? But what if the only reason they think you can't go insane from weed is all the people who did it like they died and so there's no record of it and like you know and I was very fully convinced I was going to spend the rest of my life in an insane asylum which you know and it is scary and also you know the thing is I have done I've had some experiences where you know it's where I can kind of see also like because where for some reason I was again on some sort of psychedelic and I was watching a documentary about Blue Oyster Cult's Imaginos album which I

[57:48] Don't know that I'd recommend this. This is probably not a good thing to do. But you know I was like wow this all makes total sense to me right now. And I was like, and I realized, you know, I was like, well, you know, obviously I'm in I am in an altered state right now. And once I am back to normal, you know, once I'm in normal brain again, this isn't going to make sense because this is all just this is the drug talking, right? And obviously I am going to distinguish between drug brain and normal brain because you can't live in drug brain all the time. You can't have all you can't have your mind open all the time. you can't function if you do that. So, you do need to kind of live in reality as well. But I also kind of realized like, okay, the things that you think about when you're in that state of drug brain, it's like you kind of return to a lot of the same you often return to a lot of the same themes.

[58:44] You return to the same ideas, the things that are very, you know, often the things that are, you know, needling at your own subconscious. And I realized like okay if you keep returning to the same things it makes it you start to think that those are the things that are really important and those are the things that are really real and you can almost start thinking like okay the gestalt of all these experiences indicates that's real normal brain when you're in the normal world that's the illusion and when I started thinking that I got real scared because I was like oh Oh, now I've got a fine line where you have to kind of tow between those two things. Exactly. It's one of those things where you realize at a certain point that like these experiences will make you weird, you know, they you will just be a weird person because you know to some degree you will your perspective will be different and you won't really be able to con you know like people who

[59:45] Haven't been through these sorts of things you know you kind of can't connect with them on that level. you have to either hide it to act normal or if you like let it out in front of them, people are going to be like, "Okay, that is a little that's a little strange." You know? That's one of my favorite things about reading the way that you write about psychedelics is that I think in a similar way that you were discussing kind of the modern trend of writing to queerness or trans issues where there's kind of a sanitation that happens. I think in a similar way there's kind of a trend right now as psychedelics are becoming more mainstream and sort of medicalized to write about them in a fairly sanitized way as well of like you do this thing you come out on the other side you're better for it you're healed you're something you're more adjusted somehow and I think there's I always think like my favorite metaphor for psychedelics is like there I think there less like a traditional

[1:00:48] Medicine and more of like a thrill ride or something in that like yes, you can go on a roller coaster, you can go skydiving, you can go do these like thrilling things. You can go whitewater rafting and like you can get a lot out of that and you can come out on the other side feeling like more free than you've ever felt before. You can also come out on the other side feeling very nauseous and kind of terrified of things. You can come out with like insights about yourself that are super profound or you can be like, "Yeah, I just took a weird ride." And so like I think there sort of there's like an unpredictability to the experience that I think is really interesting and there there is this weirdness to it that I feel like gets sanitized out of modern discussions of psychedelics.

[1:01:36] And I think your writing does a really cool job of interacting with psychedelics in a way. And how people experience them and want to experience them differently. Like Sarah likes to go take them in her room with her cat and then the drug dealer likes has kind of the these big rave parties and then the Moonflow's cult sort of is a completely other experience with these drugs and I think it's really cool. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Thank you. I'm glad that I'm glad you picked up on that. That's definitely like a thing that you know I think about because you're right like it they are kind of right now they're coming back into vogue and there is this medicalization that I've been seeing with you know as a lay person not like super you know I'm not super like knowledgeable about how things are going in the scene but like I've definitely seen unfortunately I'm in deep.

[1:02:33] Okay. That's what mostly what we write about is that kind of line of medicalization and corporatization of these substances and stuff is kind of a big theme that we touch on. But excellent. So you can tell me if I'm like you know you can tell me if I'm totally off base with some of these thoughts. But like I feel like cuz like it is reminds me a lot of course of the same issue the same thing that we had with marijuana for a long time which is obviously marijuana is a thing that lots of people just want to do for fun or for various reasons. You know, obviously some people do it for fun, some people do it to relax, some people do it to get insights into themselves, some people do it for social reasons, lots of reasons, but you know, because America has this obsession with you know, Puritan mindset, it's like that is not enough.

[1:03:29] It has, you know, this is, you know, this there's this idea that you find in America where it's like it we're only going to let you do something if you prove that you desperately need it. You will die without it. Otherwise, you can't have a fun thing. And we see that with like how I think weed was kind of like, oh well, it's medicinal, so therefore maybe we can legalize it in some sense. The idea that people can just do it for fun was like, that is not enough. And I mean similarly we see that with kind of a lot of queer discourse because you know it used to be with like when we're talking about when we when back in the 90s and early when it was primarily about gay people and gay marriage and all that there was this I remember it kind of was this thing it's not like the line was a person is born gay and they desperately need to they will like suicidally

[1:04:29] Unhappy. They can't live unless it's this thing. And if and at that point like the society is like, "All right, we'll allow it because you know you you've it's if it's that bad." But like just the idea that people can like be gay if just because they want to like you know [expletive] the same sex that's not enough. It's the same thing with like transness out right now where it's like the idea that someone might just want to be a different gender. They're like that's not enough. You have to prove that like you know you are desperate enough that like it's going to be like painful. It's this like again this kind of this Protestant work ethic where it's like to suffering and right now I think like that's the same thing with psychedelics where it's like oh people want to do this.

[1:05:21] No, no, no. But we have to be medicinal. There has to be like a reason for it. And of course that you know and of course once like once certain powers that be are like oh there's money in this then things suddenly the game just changes overnight. Absolutely. And the powers that be who see money in it want to kind of push their own ver vision of what people should be taking from it and getting out of it and really Yeah. they kind of have their own biases and agendas around it or they just want to box it into this treatment culture of kind of yeah you got to take this to get better or whatever and it's like I came up in I don't know like listening to weird Terren McKenna [expletive] and like reading on Arowid people's like trip reports and stuff and being like oh this is just [expletive] weird like I want to see what's weird about this like I want to touch this weirdness like Oh yeah absolut yeah yeah sameow that's where I started out as well.

[1:06:21] Yeah, because it is like it is something that I feel like is so it is so magical. It is so uniquely human because it is something that when you experience it, it is so uniquely yourself and everyone has their own thing. And the idea of now where it's like no no we're it's going to like in boxes and every it's going to be you know standardized. It's so does such violence to the idea of what this is and what it could be. And especially like right now it's just I don't know. I mean I feel like cuz psychedelics like they do have so much potential. They have so much potential and they can do so much good but at the same time you know they can be misused.

[1:07:11] Just because you know you are you know like I one of the things that I realized cuz you know when you break down the walls in your head you know well I should say like for example like when I was doing magic right part of magic is like you're tricking your brain into believing things that are not real. Right? It's like I know magic isn't real but I'm going to trick my brain into thinking that it's real. You know, I'm going to make my brain basically go I'm going to make myself go insane for fun to like so that I can do a thing and pretend and make and not just pretend, but make me feel that this is real. And like part of that is like cuz like with a magic ritual, there's all this stuff you do that's basically set up to trick yourself. like you go you have like you put on the robe, you have the candles, you play music, have incense, you take your enthogens, you do all this stuff, right?

[1:08:13] And as you're doing it, you're thinking this is really silly and dumb. Why am I doing this? I'm a rational intelligent person. I would I shouldn't be doing I shouldn't be doing this. This is silly. But as a rational intelligent person, I wouldn't be doing this unless there was a reason. So what is the reason? Oh, obviously it must be real because otherwise I wouldn't be doing it. And you know, you can psychologically trick yourself into these things and then you know and that's kind of how magic works, but also you know a lot of psychedelics are kind of like tie into that as well. And it's a sort of thing where you know getting yourself to believe things that are not real can also be very dangerous and lead you to some really bad places.

[1:09:00] Yeah, I mean, look at the history of psychedelics. You've got like MK Ultra in there just kind of like peeking its head out every once in a while, too, and being like, well, yeah, what about psychedelics for mind control or psychedelics for all these other kind of reasons? It's like, yeah, you can take it in a good direction, sure, and then you can also take it in a whole other direction. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. And I mean, that's the thing is like, you know, part of this is, you know, you have to Yeah. I mean, I don't know that there's like that's why like kind of standardizing it for everyone seems like such a dangerous idea because, you know, just being like putting it in a just giving it to people and being like, "Yeah, just take this every day or something." And it's like I feel like that could that that feels very like ripe for abuse.

[1:09:49] Especially, you know, and I don't want to sound like a conspiratorial lunatic, but it's like, yeah, the powers of be want everyone to take these things. H, this sounds very like I don't know. This sounds like the premise for one of those like dystopian 70s sci-fi movies where everyone takes their mind control drugs in the morning, you know? Yeah, it's like you know what is that movie with Christian Bale? You know where he does the gun ninja stuff and I don't know. Oh yeah, I forget the name of it, but like it's in the beginning of the movie. It's got this voice over when it's like it the future mankind has finally defeated its greatest foe, the ability to feel. So we have created a new arm of the law, the grammaton cleric.

[1:10:40] Whose sole task it is to seek out and eradicate the true source of man's inhumanity to man his ability to feel which is like a hilarious intro to this movie because we were just like oh my god this movie is going to rule and I don't remember if it was good or not I just remember that line but you know that That's what it kind of feels like if you're standardizing things. I mean, people Yeah, it's like for Oh, sorry. Oh, no. I was going to say people like I do think people can get so much out of it though because, you know, a lot of people who, you know, micro do and it's like, you know, it helps them function.

[1:11:25] I mean, I know I have friends who like, you know, who micro dose for and it really helps for their depression, for their anxiety. It helps them with creativity. it like unlocks things in their heads. It just, you know, it just does so much good. But yeah, it's Yeah, it's like you can't begrudge people those experiences because they totally exist and like at their core they do like it's like they make you malleable for better or for worse. Like and if you can like direct that experience in a way that you want, that's great. But in a standardized setting, especially in a standardized like guided session, you're very reliant on who that guide is and who you're giving sort of agency of your trip over to.

[1:12:13] And so I think it's an interesting thing that's at play right now is sort of like where's that going to go with standardization. Absolutely. I mean, I think that's the thing is right now because it's kind of an underground thing, it's something that when people seek it out, you know, it feels like generally if you're seeking it out, there's a reason for it and you've given thought to that reason. And you know, whether it's for fun or for healing or something, but like going in with an intention, I think, is an important part of it. And the idea of just like everyone just kind of getting it. I feel like there's a lot of people who, and I don't want to sound elitist, u, you know, there's a lot of people who do things without intention, you know, and we all do that.

[1:13:01] We all do. There's things we just do automatically just because it's part of our day, right? You don't think about it. You don't introspect about it. And I feel like doing that with psychedelics is probably the worst thing you can do because you will have these experiences then and have no like internal thoughts about what they mean or how to process them. And it's just like, you know, people will just because I can I mean look at like for example our man Elon Musk, that guy who as far as I can tell takes loads of I don't know what like all sorts of stuff and his takeaway from it is just like I'm great and racism is good. And it's like I feel like that's a man who doesn't really think much about what these experiences really mean.

[1:13:46] He just seems very or his intentions going in are not great. Yeah, that as well. I mean, that's probably like an even, you know, that's probably an even like scarier thought that like he is intentionally doing this to himself that he's going in thinking like I want to have this experience that will, you know, that will reinforce the fact, you know, the you know, that that aparthide was great, you know, it's like Exactly. or justify my ego and justify, you know, it's like so yeah, it's fascinating. It's Yeah, it's strange times that we live in right now. So, yeah, and I could probably go on for another three hours discussing some of these issues. So, I'll try to maybe get us back onto the book here because you're being so generous with your time.

[1:14:34] But on the mushrooms note, too, I just had like a little silly question here. There's a ton of fun mushroom names in your book. Couple you got like the western jacko'lantern, the cat's tongue, the murder of God, the king's breakfast. Do you just have like a document somewhere of unused mushroom names? I do cuz like so for toad stools I had like a list I started that game out with just like making a list of like what would be fun names for a mushroom. Cuz there are some real wacky names in real life. And so I was just trying to come up with some fun ones. And then like when I was doing Moonflow, I was like, "Okay, how many of these can I jam in there?" And it's funny because the first the book is divided into three sections.

[1:15:24] And the first section there there each chapter is a little epigraph and a lot of them are like excerpts from this fictional mushroom guide that the character uses in the book. And for the first section, all the mushrooms are actual like real mushrooms. I looked them up and like found some and the descriptions of what they're like are all accurate to reality. But starting in section two, all the mushrooms are made up. And I and the thing is like a lot of people who've read the book cannot tell the difference because they were like it's which you know is intentional cuz I wanted it to and actually I should give a shout out to Angelica and this was kind of her idea that like they should start like you know like plausible and just get like stranger as the book goes on. which is why you know towards the end of the book there's mushrooms that are that have bones in them and stuff and you know I think there's like a some of them I think like

[1:16:27] The murder of God is probably my favorite one. I always use that name for a lot of stuff. The King's Breakfast is a name that actually Okay, that one started because some friends of mine basically went to this German restaurant which no longer exists, but it's one of these, it was this fancy German restaurant, like a rat's Keller type place, I think, that was in the Bay Area. You go down in a basement, they have the windows that are all like the yellow beer glass type window, you know. Yeah. And what they had this item on their menu called the king's breakfast, which was apparently like, you know, like one of those like fancy dishes where if you eat the whole thing, it's free, I guess. And it was like 15 different kinds of sausage, 12 kinds of bacon, you know, like an omelette the size of like a garbage can lid, which has like And so it was just like all this, you know, just ridiculous amount of food.

[1:17:25] And you know, it's just called the King's Breakfast, which I thought was like, when I heard that name, I was like, I feel like that is a great name for something that's not a breakfast. I can't think of what it is, but like the King's Breakfast. And so when I started writing Moonflow, I was like, I feel like this is the name of this is going to be to really ex so that the audience can instantly get the majesty of this mushroom. like this is the mushroom everyone is after the king's breakfast. So that was really like that was kind of like the one thing I think that was really non-negotiable from the beginning was that that's got to be the name of this mushroom. Which gets a little confusing I think because like the cult give call it moonflow.

[1:18:12] So there's some different names and Moonflow be. By the way, I'm just going to say this. Moonflow. I can't believe that. You got it titled. I got it titled that because I was certain that at some point someone would force me to change that. I'm so glad that they let me get away with it. That's great. I show this book to my sister and she looks at the title and she was like, "Is that menstruation?" And I was like, "Not in the book, but that that kind of is the that is kind of what I was thinking. It is kind of a joke on that because it's thematic with the femininity of the cult in the book." But totally. Oh, and to that point, I guess I I'll just toss this in here now.

[1:19:01] If I have a couple of spoiler questions. So, if you haven't read the book, go get the book and stop the interview here u and then continue later. And I know we've touched a few spoilers already, but a few of these might be bigger spoilers, but the I interpreted when the cult was talking about Moonflow, and maybe this wasn't the correct interpretation, but they're because it kind of went through that process of going through Mother Moonflow where she eats the king's breakfast and then they kind of drink her milk from her massive breasts. And I kind of thought of Moonflow as like the liquid form of the king's breakfast almost when they would talk about it. Yeah. Yeah, that was basically the idea. I think like you know I don't know how true this is but like you know if you read about like in like Finland where shamans will eat like fly garick and then or no no not eat it but like I guess reindeer eat it and then like shamans will drink the reindeer

[1:20:01] Piss because apparently sure I guess that like does something so you get like less you're less likely to like vomit instantly. And I think it does something so that kind of like already broken down or something. Yeah, it's like a natural kind of lemon tech, I guess. That's what I was about to say. Yeah. So, that was kind of my thought in like how this process works that like oh okay like you know that way it's the king's breakfast is a little more palatable. But I don't know how many people reading the book are going to like be like oh yeah clearly this is like that reindeer piss process. I just figured like, you know, when I was doing it, I was just like this, you know what? I don't know. I kind of was like trying to see how much I could get away with in this.

[1:20:46] I was Yeah. And you got away with a lot. I literally in the best way. I like again, I was like when I was turned this book in, I every step of the process, I was daring people to like just like no, no, no, no. But like everyone was on board. And honestly, I I'll say I mean the reaction now that it's out in the world, obviously there's a lot of mixed reaction to it. Some people, you know, some it's some people really dig it, you know, smart people who with good taste think it's great. You know, other people kind of bounce off it. I mean, that's kind of, you know, when you're creating art, that's the best thing. You want people to have strong reactions. I mean, I think really the worst thing as an artist, and I've experienced this, is when you create something and people are just like, "Oh, that's fine."

[1:21:34] You know? Yeah. It's like, "Oh, that's the kiss of death." You just It's the worst thing. So I'm really glad that people if they are, you know, if people dislike it, I mean, at least they're feeling something reaction. Yeah. Yeah. And I can't like, you know, well, most of the people who have disliked it, I mean, I have to I mean, I just have to be like, you know what, that's fair. I mean, if people read the book and they're like, I don't like swearing and sex, I'm like, well, that's fair. Mostly for you. Sorry. Yeah. I will say, spoilers. This is the one thing that really pissed me off though because someone cuz someone several people have been like, "Well, I don't like this book because there they the there a cat dies and the cat doesn't die.

[1:22:24] The cat is I was about to say, wait, they kind of missed something, don't they? Nothing happens to the cat." I think because there is I because I was like I wanted to provide you know content warnings in the book. I thought that like I thought you know I'm not generally I'm kind of indifferent on the concept of content warnings and horror because I feel like you know you kind of you're reading a horror book you know what you're getting into but at the same time I thought like you know what this one this one's got some kind of wild stuff in it. It might be good to have some content warnings just you know just I mean you know just in case because I was doing a I was doing a sign book signing and this little old lady came up and was buying the book and I was kind of like oh do you read a lot of horror and she was like oh no I've never read horror but I think this would be a good first horror book and I was just like you know sure I was like I would love to make this sale but I can't in good conscience tell you that it's a good first horror book,

[1:23:26] You may want to consider maybe I don't know some RL Stein first or you know just you know but I was like just read the content warnings because you know there's a lot in here but like one of the content warnings is is violence against animals because there is a scene spoiler where someone throws a beer bottle at a raccoon. Yes, that is it. But I know people are kind of weird about animal you know injuries. So I thought you know just ju just I'll just to be completist I'll put that warning there. You know and people have just read that warning and immediately assume that it's the cat. And it's like I mean it's one of those things where it's like okay if just don't read the book.

[1:24:12] But I mean it's weird that you read the content warning read the book and then forgot how the book ended. like remember the content warning. It's tell me you didn't finish the book without telling me you didn't finish the book kind of thing there. I mean some people honestly I'm just like reading comprehension seems to be not your strong suit, you know, not to be kind of chirish there. I tried to track it down but I couldn't find it. But one of the favorite reviews I caught on on some website somewhere might have been on Reddit. It might have I can't remember where it was, but it was saying that like Moonflow is like an incredible story about commitment to a cat. It's Yes. Like it certainly is. Oh, it totally is. Well, you know, that was the thing is when I was writing this book, it was like I am so I am the proud parent to now three cats.

[1:25:06] We just got a third one. And you know, I love all my I love all my children, but Sandy is my baby boy. Si is my big boy. He's my large adult son. And if anything happened to him, I would kill myself. So, I have So, a lot of that was written in here because I was just like writing about my boy Sandy in this book because I was just like, "Oh, I love him so much." And I feel like yeah I don't know again when I was writing it I was like I don't know how many crazy cat people are out there who will really get this. It feels like there are a lot though. It is funny because some people were just mad that like I have gotten people who are mad because again, spoilers.

[1:25:54] The ending, our main character, you know, transcends humanity to become a restful cube in the ether or whatever. And someone was like, I don't like that. She abandoned her cat. And it's like, yeah, coming. Andy's coming. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, I know that's not I was like, I mean, I don't like that either, but that's kind of the point of, you know, the book is to show this is how big the transcendence is that it led her to leave the cat, you know. So, but like people are weird. People are weird. That was one of my spoiler questions here was that something I really loved throughout the whole book was this sort of pushpull between is this all sort of a feverdream psychedelic trip as far as like the lord of the forest, the green lady, the glitch, all of this, or is there actually something supernatural going on in the Pomago forest? when you were writing it, was that were you aware the

[1:26:55] Whole time writing it that something supernatural was going on or was that sort of a pushpull that you were dealing with while you were writing the story too? Cuz obviously we find out that in fact there was something supernatural at work in the woods. So when I wrote this, I definitely wanted something supernatural. So I was writing it in the mind that there would be. But I also really wanted this again to kind of like to I, you know, when I was writing the book, part of this again was like my own experience with psychedelics and to really get into the idea of when you're in that state, you literally cannot trust anything like anything at all. Excuse me. Like, one time, okay, so this is a little, maybe I'm derailing a bit, but like I, I had an experience once where I was with some friends.

[1:27:45] We were hypothetically on a substance and all of a sudden I realized in the middle of this like things were going great. I was having a great time and all of a sudden I realized I cannot trust anything. I can't trust my own emotions. I can't trust my senses. I can't trust my thoughts. And everyone else in this room is exactly the same. Like they can't trust anything either. and my perception of what I think is reality at this point that I don't know what they are perceiving as reality at all. Like we don't know, right? And I remember suddenly just being having this insane panic attack because someone was like offering me some like we had a pizza. I was like, "Would you like some pizza?"

[1:28:30] And I look at the pizza and I'm like, "How do I know this is pizza? How do I know?" Because obviously it's a pizza. I'm looking at it and it's a pizza. But like I know I can't trust anything and this person is saying I should have some pizza. How do they know it's a pizza? Possibly we are so [expletive] up that they have gone and gotten rat poison and they think it's a pizza and I think it's a pizza and they maybe inadvertently poisoned me. I wouldn't know because you know you get so so just insane thoughts, right? Mhm. And then my friend was at one point like, "Hey, hey, come on outside." And my first thought was like, "Why does he want me to go outside? What is he thinking? What is going through his head?"

[1:29:16] Cuz like I'm getting I'm descending into paranoia, right? And maybe he is too. Maybe he is also paranoid and he's looking at me and he thinks that I'm plotting against him because he can't read my feelings. He can't read my face. He doesn't know what's going on. and maybe he's going to take action proactively against me because he thinks that I'm plotting against him and when I walk outside he's going to [expletive] kill me with a shovel. And that was my thought, right? And so so when I say that like some of these substances can be a little dangerous, this is the sort of thing I'm talking about. And so what I did was I was just like okay I know that I am not thinking rationally and I know no one else is either but and I know that like if I freak out if I start like flipping out about this cascade effect everyone is going to freak out chain reaction.

[1:30:13] Exactly right. That is not good. So I am going to pretend everything is normal. And if someone else freaks out first that maybe whatever we'll deal with that, but I will not be the first one. I will not be the one to cause the cascade reaction. So I need to just walk outside like everything is normal and if he kills me with a shovel, I will just have to accept that. I will just deal with it, you know. And so I just walked outside and he was just like showing me the moon. He was like, "Look at the moon. It's so big." And I was like, "Oh, yeah." And afterwards, like my friends were like, "Wow, you really can't handle this." And I was like, "Honestly, I feel like I handled it really well because I feel like if I actually couldn't handle it, you would have had a really bad time." But like I in fact did not act on the paranoia.

[1:31:01] Exactly. But like but you know, there's that experience where like again when I speak of it now in my rational brain, it sounds like why would you ever think that way? That makes no sense. But like when I was writing Moonflow, I really did want to kind of tap into that sense where you just cannot trust anything at all around you. You just feel like so completely untethered from what reality is. And so there's a lot of sections in the book where I was trying to really make it so the reader also felt that way. There's this subplot in the book where some of the cult members go out to perform basically a Charles Manson style murder. And this entire section of the book I wanted to write this in the way that like it feels like it it's unclear how much of this is real and how much of this is actually like just their own

[1:32:02] Hallucinations. And it was like cuz basically they go out to this town where they are they get chased by like a gang of cops and I was trying to in this I was describing the cops and they me and one of the characters mentions this fact that all the cops they look basically like tanks and there's this description where it's like well because it's because cops only marry other cops and they only breed with other cops. So eventually they kind of become their own species, you know, they branch off from homo sapiens into like homompus. Yeah. Or something like that. And one reviewer was talking about the book where they're like it's really easy to believe that this actually just takes place in an alternative world where that is the reality where police actually are a separate species.

[1:32:53] And I was very gratified by that because that was really the sense that I wanted to have in the book where it does feel like these patently absurd things are just normal like you like because when you're in that state you will think and feel things that are absolutely bonkers and just be like oh yeah that that makes sense that that could be and so that was kind of a big part of that. And I al also I also originally in earlier drafts I made it even more obscure. I think like you know, I got a lot of feedback from beta readers and editors who were like, you might want to like explain a little bit here. And so so I think like now when you read the book it's like oh later on kind of becomes clear that like a lot of that is kind of drug trippy but I tried to make it again a little bit like how much of this we don't we never really find out.

[1:33:50] Totally the like the murder that they commit. They do commit a murder and I think later on we really it is unclear like exactly who they killed and what happened because we only get it from the perspective of the characters who were like you know a little gone at that point. And there is some implication I think towards the end that maybe cuz we do possibly meet the character they killed again. So, you know, it's Yeah, it's very ambiguous. Wow. I really Am I blowing your mind yet? Sorry. There's another scene I'm I think of this other the other scene towards the end of the book, too, where they're kind of in the basement.

[1:34:35] And there's the spores are all in the air and it's kind of cutting between characters views and like you're seeing from one person's perspective all these like the tendrils are like coming to them and like getting them and then you cut to another character and you see the same character sort of just writhing on the floor and like all it's like yeah what's real what's not real as they're in this kind of like sporeheavy basement. But yeah so so fun. Was there any hard to read, right? Actually, surprisingly, I believe it. Yeah, I did not realize when I started that scene cuz I did again like it was very intentional be like you don't know who's got the actual real like who is under the influence and who is not and who is having an accurate depiction sight of what's happening but like every character is literally in a different reality.

[1:35:25] And when I was trying to write that, I realized, oh my god, this is actually an incredibly difficult balancing act. And yeah, I don't know that it's entirely successful, but like I tried my best. I loved it. I thought it was really entertaining. And as far as scenes and characters go, did you have a favorite character or scene to write or when you think back on sort of the drafting of the book, are there any that stick out? Yeah, I will say I think probably my favorite well, my favorite character in this book. Okay. You know what it's I'm going to say there's two characters that that are my favorites. So Skillet is ba Skillet is basically for all intents and purposes a self-insert.

[1:36:15] When I was writing this book, I was like, what if I wrote a character just my own pure id, you know, and ju just the way that like if so skillet was kind of that she is this kind of this little kind of just like feral goblin girl who you know the entire every decision she makes in the entire book is just the absolute worst one possible and she's just like constantly [expletive] things up. But like she is very like kind of like oh that she's very dear to me. So I really Skillet was the character that like I kind of was like this she she's like me in real life. And it's funny because so many people reading the book are just like I just like skillet is the worst.

[1:37:00] She is like terrible people the best way though. Yeah. Like people definitely there are a lot of people who are like you know I think they really are like identify with you know a lot of people who identify with Sarah or Andy or the Hellslut especially because those are all characters I think there is a certain like pathos to them and Skillet was literally just like no Skillet is just everything is just she's just very horny. She's just making bad decisions and she's entirely just like self-interested. That is her whole thing throughout the book. So, she's kind of like, yeah, it was a the sort of person that like Yeah. Not someone you would want to know in real life, but like incredibly fun as a character and it really drives the story forward with a lot of her bad decisions.

[1:37:50] Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, it just wouldn't happen without Skillet. So, I am I just absolutely I adore Skillet. I kind of feel like, you know, that yeah, she's a lot of my like when I was writing this and I was just like, well, what would I do if I, you know, if I didn't have to worry about like anything? If I could just make the wor, you know, the worst possible decision and that was a lot of skillet stuff. Because you know so I mean also like there's I mean it was funny because a lot of people have been like skills actually a very problematic you know fat chaser and it's like yes that's that that is accurate and that is intentional in fact that was I did kind of want to make Skillet be this character where she has a relationship with Sarah and I again wanted to make it kind of obscure how much is here is actual like real feelings versus fetishization.

[1:38:47] So that was kind of intentional thing. I mean also I mean to be you know my own purant interest I think that fat girls are really hot. So when I wrote this book I was like I I'm going to have some sex scenes in here. I should probably like make the characters fat so that I have some interest in actually writing it. You know, so so that's, you know, my own that is, you know, it's funny because like some people have been like, "Oh, you know, I like the representation, the fat representation, because like Sarah and the Heller characters who are fat, but like they're more realized. They're not just you know, I was trying to make them as fully realized characters because especially in horror, whenever you see a fat character, they're very often just supposed to be an object of disgust.

[1:39:32] You know, if you read any Stephen King, he really hates fat women. I always think of like you know, Clive Barker's Son of Celluloid, which is a great short story. I really love it. But the protagonist is this like is is a big fat girl who defeats the monster at the end by sitting on it, which is kind of like it's kind of like I think that is a little juvenile. George RR Martin has this the pear-shaped man. Have you read that story by him? I have not. Oh boy, that sounds It's actually quite a like disturbing read like scary story-wise, but it the whole thing is just the antagonist is just this pear-shaped man.

[1:40:20] It's I mean it is fascinating. I think I mean again it shows like when you talk about like horror and like the monstrousness of the other which you know I think like again a lot of you know which informs a lot of queer phobia that you see but also a lot of other phobias not you know racism sexism blah blah blah whatever and also fat phobia which we don't discuss a whole lot in American society but there is there's that undercurrent and you know when I was writing moonflow I have gotten I I'll say this like you know I was describing because there are some fat characters so there are some vivid descriptions of fat bodies in the book and I knew that it would be divisive.

[1:41:10] I knew people would pe some people would not like it. I think it's funny because when I wrote the book because I think fat bodies are attractive. So, I was writing these descriptions being like, "This is hot. This is like actually like this will really get your motor going." And so many people have looked at and just been like, "That is disgusting. How are you doing that?" And I'm like, "Well, I don't know if that says more about you or me." But it's a fascinating thing. I It is. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, again, like I am I will admit that like as you know, I am not a you know, I'm not a fat person or at least I'm not someone that society treats as fat. You know, maybe I'm a little thick, but like so my perspective is going to be different and an actual fat person probably, you know, would I don't know.

[1:42:04] I mean, I've had I think it's definitely something where like some fat people have read the book and been like, "Oh, it's nice, you know. It's actually really it's kind of nice to see like you know fat protagonists where the book is you know it's not just about them feeling bad about being fat. Because so many like books with fat protagonists it's like we need to show this is a you know we need to signal that this is a moral person by having them feel bad about this moral failing of being fat. And I didn't want that at all. I wanted it just be a kind of a fact of life for them. I also wanted it to kind of be like I didn't I also wanted it to be like an actual, you know, reality of their lives.

[1:42:50] So that like in the book like Sarah you know, she is fat and like she mentions a few times that like, you know, hiking through the woods, she's not very physically fit. She's kind of sedentary. This is kind of rough on her. Whereas the hell [expletive] who's also fat, is much more active in kind of a strong fat like muscle gut type way. So, she's a lot more, I guess, physically capable, but like I just wanted it to write in this ways where their fatness does have like material impacts on their reality, but it's not just like feeling sad all day and also like people looking at them being like, " gross." Because I don't think But anyway, wow. I got really derailed into this because you were asking my favorite character. Yeah, I think we hit on Skillet.

[1:43:35] You said there was one other one. There was one other one. I like I went on this big rant before we got I just love talking so much. I have to do it. I'm like appreciate it so much. Well, thank I thank you. I appreciate your indulgence here because I'm pleas Oh, let me go on. But the other character that like I absolutely love in this book, I mean, I love all of them. They're all my babies, but like this was a character that like popped into the book completely. Just wasn't planned from the beginning. They were kind of an accident. And that is Doc Klopper because there is yeah, this is there's a basically a medic in the cult and she is basically this cranky old brony.

[1:44:26] So a My Little Pony fan was street medic during Occupy. Yes. Yes, exactly. She was street medic during Occupy and also I think she mentions like some of her experiences at like brony conventions. But like I really like I wanted that like when I wrote her in I kind of wanted the idea of this like the cult is is very weird politically. It's kind of hard to pin down because it is this like this amalgamation of, you know, people who just are kind of like freaks and outsiders who kind of gravitate towards Mother Moonflow, the cult leader because of her magnetic charisma or personality or whatnot, which is kind of how a lot of cults work.

[1:45:14] They are just they don't make a lot of internal sense. And so you know a lot of the cult because it is a like kind of feminist radical lesbian separatist cult a lot of the there is kind of this the a leftist bent to a lot of the members you know and I felt when I was writing this book I was like you know as a leftist myself I was kind of like I don't know what message this will get across that people will read it and be like oh obviously the bad guy was a street medic during like Occupy George Floyd, you're saying those things were bad. And it's like I was really trying to get it like no, these are these this is a complicated thing where you get people who are involved in stuff. They contain people contain multitudes.

[1:46:00] But like I thought that would be more true to the sort of person who might get involved in this just because again, you know, living in Northern California, I have seen the most bizarre political transformations, especially in the last few years. You get like these, you know, you get like these peacnik old hippies who are like, "Oh man, we got to grow our own like grow our own hemp, man, cuz mother earth's she's our mother, man, and we got to like take care of her." And by the way, chemtrails are real and like the Jews are using lasers to like, you know, and it's just like how do you believe how is it possible that you have these ideas in your head that they coexist? I was like at work a while back and there's this little old lady, this nice little old lady who comes in, right?

[1:46:50] And she she'll talk to, you know, she comes in, she's lonely, she'll talk to the people at the front desk and she's like this sweet little old lady, right? A grandma, right? And she was telling me how she's like, "I have an idea these for to help get rid of the help solve the homeless problem." And I was like, "Oh, oh, that's nice. What is it?" She's like, "Well, what we should do is round them all up and put them in a camp and keep them in this camp and have armed guards around the camp and they get like and people can come if you have a job and be like, I need like those I need three guys. I want to like buy those three and like, you know, and if you and you get three chances and if you if you're a person of the camp and if you reject these three, you get liquidated."

[1:47:37] And I was just like, "Holy [expletive] this is like reinvented slavery." Yeah. I was just like I was just like shocked at this like this incredibly like dark like idea. And I was just like and she's like I talked to the sheriff about this and he thought it was a good idea. And I was like I hope to God that the sheriff was just like that's nice and like kind of not that he actually thinks it's a good idea but knowing sheriffs he probably was like yeah that is a good idea. I wish we could actually do that. But yeah, I'm just it is just this thing where like you know you people have just such bizarre because like again this is like a little lady. she would bring us cookies and stuff and like you know she was like oh I just you know it just it was just so bizarre to see and people so yeah when I was writing these characters I did kind of want to have like this to make them into like things that were like coherent as characters but also like a little confusing in the sense that they had these contrary ideas. When I wrote

[1:48:40] Doc Klopper. So that was kind of like the idea of someone who would be in the cult who was like a medic would be like some or have some sort of medical knowledge would probably be someone who is a street medic and had like that kind of experience. And when I wrote her in it was kind of like the thing about Okay, so again I'm going to go on here. I'm gonna go on here because this is a thing that I wrote into the book that I'm very very self-satisfied about, but like I don't know that like it really hit the people who got it. Like if you know. Real heads know. But this is an incredibly complicated moving parts joke for a very small payoff.

[1:49:25] But it's basically this. Doc Klopper is I thought it would be funny if she was a brony. if she was like you know she was really into My Little Pony the series which bronies were a thing we had a few years ago. I don't know if they still exist. Do we still have them around? I knew some bronies. Okay, there we go. So, they're still around. I think most of them have just either by this point either become furries or just become magnazis. It seems like that's or the other joke about brony is like you know being a brony in 2025 become transwoman become Nazi. The choice is yours. Which is also accurate split path. It's like they've Yeah, there it's like they've all either become Nazis or become trans women or furries. There's some overlap in those categories a little bit.

[1:50:13] But when I but so Doc Klopper is basically a brony and she mentions there's this thing that happens me she does where she wants to get her hands on horse piss and she thinks Sarah is able to get her horse piss and literally one person actually approached me and they were like is this a premarran joke and I was like yes it is because basically what happens is It used to be that the I think it oh god the stuff they gave you when you were transitioning from male to female I think it was prearin it was synthesized out of the urine of pregnant mayors.

[1:50:58] They don't use that anymore. I think it's all it's artificially synthesized now. But 20 years ago when a friend announced that they were transitioning in my friend group, we were every time a friend would transition, we'd be like, "Ah, you're going on the horse piss now. Good for you." Because we were all furries. So, you know, this was the thing we would say. It was like it was just like it was almost a joke. The horse piss. Everyone's drinking the horse piss now. But now that horse pisses, sorry, that the transition hormones, I don't know what the new one Well, I don't know what people are taking now. I don't know what the kids are into, but it's not made out of horse piss anymore. They've forgotten their roots. So, the kids don't get this because I thought like it would make sense that this brony would have an interest in getting horse piss and would think that a transwoman could get that for her.

[1:51:52] So, it's kind of there a couple like moving parts there. It's not really there's not much payoff. Like I said, it's really not that funny except to me. And I just really thought like, okay, the three people who kind of figure out what's happening here will really appreciate this. Though a lot of people have just got I mean the one person was just really mad about this. Like I don't understand this. Why are they talking about a horse piss? Is that like code for like some other kind of mushroom or psychedelic? And it's like no, it's literally just horse piss. Oh, well, I think it's an incredible Easter egg for anyone who's made it this far into the interview and has read the book because I didn't realize that and I just thought it was sort of a weird quirk of her. Also, the last name Klopper is kind of funny and she wears the horse mask at the ceremony too, right? Yes, exactly.

[1:52:38] And of course, Doc Klopper being another kind of like multi-art joke because it's a reference to Doc Hopper from the Muppets movie if you've ever seen that. But also klopping cuz klopping was code in brony fandom for masturbating. Okay. They would be like, "Oh yeah, we're all klopping to Oh god, I don't know. I know too much internet stuff apparently. It's all coming together now. It's all coming together." Every internet fandom has its own euphemism for masturbating cuz they cuz every they all do it so much. Why are you on the internet if you're not masturbating? Because you know I was in furry so there you call it. Well no I think yiffing was the term.

[1:53:23] I maybe not I don't know. Yifing was some sort of sexual term. I forget if it was specifically masturbating or it was just a general like sex term but clapping apparently is specific to masturbating. And I know that because they made a documentary about bronies where John Delansancy of TV Star Trek talks about it. Amazing. Amazing that they got him to narrate that and actually reference their code for jerking off. Maybe I'll see if I can find the clip and insert it right here real quick. Oh yeah. Yeah. Their talent is their glory. Everping. Oh dear. I love that for him. But I believe he did a voice on the show and that's why he's on the documentary.

[1:54:12] Got it. Got it. Oh, that's so funny. So anyway, yeah. Yeah, hopefully that's edifying. That is. And I hope I don't get cancelled for this. Oh boy. Oh boy. I don't think there's anything cancelable here. I think it's all fun. All in good fun. We are coming up around 2 hours. I had no idea it was going to go this long and I'm so excited that it did. I hope No, no apologies necessary. I'm stoked. But as we come to a close and as 2025 is coming to a close, moving away from your wonderful book, did you have any favorite writing or media that you've kind of consumed this year that you want to blast out to anybody? Oh, yeah. Yeah. So there's a lot of good stuff out there.

[1:54:58] I have I will say that books that I've read recently, some I've been reading a lot of horror. I really recommend Chasers by if you liked Moonflow, check out Chasers. It's by Eve Harms and Mariah Darling. It's another kind of like gonzo trans body horror book that really like goes places. I always love Eve Harms because she is just like she has this incredible bem movie splatterpunk sensibility. That might have been I think my partner just read that for a queer book club and loved it. So yeah, that is a fun one. I love that one. Also in queer horror, you got to check out A Game in Yellow by Haley Piper, which is kind of a riff on The King in Yellow, but in a queer BDSM context, which is like kind of bonkers.

[1:55:49] I also love the divine flesh by Drew Huff, which I thought was a queer metaphor about like having like an a cosmic abomination inside your body that has kind of this like horny bimbo personality. But actually, I think Drew Huff mentioned it's actually more of a neurode divergence metaphor, which I thought was interesting. It kind of works on multiple levels, but that is if you like real mind [expletive] that is a good one. Also coming out, I just read, I don't think it's out yet, but keep your eyes open for this. It's a book called Wife-shaped Bodies by Laura Cranehill, which is a it is mushroom related, so the listeners will probably appreciate that.

[1:56:36] It's kind of a post-apocalyptic horror book about a world where all the women have died off. So, they develop a new kind of woman basically out of mushrooms. It is bonkers. And I think that one is going to be a real cracker jack to look for in the new year. Cool. So yeah, those are some of my recommendations. I think Thank you so much for that. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And then any of your own projects that are underway, upcoming or ongoing that you want to plug here at the end? Yeah. So, first of all, Moonflow is still out there and available for purchase. So, go buy it if you haven't yet, even though we've basically given away everything in the book. Yeah. No, there's so much more. And it's such a fun read. I can't stress that enough.

[1:57:22] It's a serious page turner. There's I wrote I figured, you know what? It's competing with so much stuff out there. I gotta every page you read is a victory for me. So I gotta keep people reading. But Moonflow's out there. You can also find my novella, the ballot of Horse Girl, which is a weird western horror from Tenevers Press as part of Splitcream 5. And that's available right now. And coming up my next novel is going to be a little bit different. It's a folk horror from called Quaint Folk. Oh, hey, I just realized folk is in the title. That makes sense. That's great. It's about an obnoxious American family who goes to this secluded British island where things are just way too quaint.

[1:58:13] Everything is way too cute and darling. Everyone is like drinking tea and petting ducklings. And what sinister supernatural force lurks beneath the surface? It is it's like Moonflow. It is kind of a it's kind of a dark satire on that. It is also very queer. It's probably like it's probably a it's a lot I don't know. It's like it's less gross than Moonflow. I decided I would try to work not work blue this time. show that I have range, but it ended up being like way meaner. It's way meaner. So, so I'm really looking forward to that. I think it's a lot of fun.

[1:58:59] I've had a lot of fun writing it. And, so yeah, quaint folk. Look for that in, in the new year for me. And, Awesome. That's so exciting. Speaking my language there with kind of the strange setting and the PE. Yeah, I love that. Yeah. So, I'm excited and hopefully Yeah. Yeah, we'll see how everything goes. But buy my book, as the kids say. Yes. Yes. Go buy it. It's very good. And I can't thank you enough for being here today and I'm so glad this could happen and that I got so much of your time. You've been so generous. I really appreciate it. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. Always a pleasure. Yeah.