Psychedelics are Big Pharma Now, 5-MeO Propaganda, Spiritual Grifter's Manslaughter Charge 7.27.2026

The crew discusses AtaiBeckley's acquisition by Eli Lilly, The Wall Street Journal's mini-documentary on 5-MeO-DMT, and a recent death that occurred during a psychedelic retreat.

00:00:00 Intro
00:02:58 AtaiBeckley Acquisition
00:26:54 Wall Street Journal 5-MeO Documentary
01:24:08 Patreon Plug
01:25:10 Guru Samuel B. Lee Manslaughter Charges

SUPPORT:
https://www.patreon.com/psymposia

FOLLOW:
https://www.instagram.com/psymposia/
https://x.com/psymposia
https://bsky.app/profile/psymposia.bsky.social

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically from YouTube's captions, then cleaned up by removing filler words, repeated words and background sounds. It may still contain errors.

[00:00] So, the real Jesua, the magi grail king. And remember what I said, magi grail kings have the DNA codes for specific celestial human tribe, Stargates. He was a planetary grid worker. He was arrested and charged with seconddegree felony manslaughter in connection with a woman's death after psychedelic retreat. the psychedelics, they will be kind of like Spravado, but instead of coming in every week, you're coming in every two months, three months. And a lot of those narratives for years had been big farm is not going to be okay with this because it's going to cure you with the one and done model and then they're not going to be able to make money. And so you can see how far that discourse has gone where now it's like reassuring the investors know this is a maintenance therapy that people are going to return to on a regular basis.

[00:51] Again the biggest blind spot is that the world is [expletive] burning. The people are ready to [expletive] rise up and burn [expletive] down and like take up pitchforks because they can't afford food, medicine, shelter. They got debt. They got all this. And you get this industry that's coming in and just selling you little things to plug all these holes that keep springing. They want to control the narrative. They want to not only they want to control the narrative and they want to control the means of access. Hey everybody, welcome to the Psymposia podcast. I am Normmy and I am joined today by my colleagues Nishe Devono and Mike Elliot. How are you guys doing?

[01:38] Doing good. Good. You're surviving all the biblical floods and smoke and what else do we got going on? What are the catastrophes? You got floods, NH. Yeah, it's just Yeah, this the storms have been really crazy. We've got smoke. We got smoke here. You didn't get smoke, Mike. You were I didn't get smoke, but we got We're producing our own fires. So, nice. You got the You're next to the data center built up. Yeah, exactly. Yep. So today we are going to be covering some recent developments in the psychedelic industry. One of the big psychedelic drug developers which is a Thai life sciences. They were recently just acquired by Eli Liy like the largest pharmaceutical company in the world. We're also going to be covering the Wall Street Journal's new little mini documentary mostly on 5 MO DMT that's had a lot of views on YouTube so far.

[02:29] And kind of interestingly, it was timed to come out right before that acquisition announcement was made. And we're also going to be talking about a boardcertified psychiatrist down in Miami who was just arrested for death that occurred under his a retreat that he was doing. The death actually occurred, I think, in February of 2025, and he was just arrested last week. So, there's a bunch of news that came out about that. All right. So the terms of the deal for the Atai Beckley were $675 a share which comes out to about $2.8 billion and then there was also another billion dollars that would kick in if a Thai met certain circum certain milestones within four to five years.

[03:18] Basically they have to enter into a phase three clinical trial of one of their drug candidates. So this is a pretty big deal in the psychedelic industry. This is the first time a huge far major pharmaceutical company has moved in and acquired one of the companies. Their drug is BPL00003. That's a fast acting synthetic form of 5me DMT. A lot of people are super excited about this development. Are you excited about it? I'm not excited about it whatsoever. And this is not exciting. This is not exciting to me. What about you, Mike? Does this get you stoked for the psychedelic revolution? Unfortunately, this doesn't seem like much of the revolution that, you know, I'd be excited about. You You're not super excited for a Spravado competitor out there?

[04:05] Competitor? No, I just I'm not, you know, and if you look at the evidence, we talked a little bit about 5 MO DMT synthetic in the episode with Dr. Tyler Black and how just like weak the evidence is and how poorly these randomly controlled trials are done, you know, on specifically, you know, 5 MOD DMT and how the hype is just so intense. They're even in the research papers, they're talking about how this particular version of 5 Mod DMT is better than the best theoretically possible anti-depressant. So, it's too much of a hype fest. I think there, you know, there's nothing really here to be excited about. It's also, it's big pharma, isn't that what everybody's been worried about for so long?

[04:51] Yeah. And furthermore, this was also a Peter Tealbacked company. Yet again, you can't get rid of them. He's everywhere in everything. That is interesting. This guy is there. A Thai was founded in just a little background on AIA. They were founded in 2018. They IPOed in 2021. The German Christian Angermmer is behind him. who's the guy that's also behind the enhanced games. And in 2025, they merged with Beckley. Several years ago, Beckley had spun off like a corporate company to do drug development and had merged with them. That was Amanda Fielding's Amanda Fielding had run the Beckley Foundation for years in the nonprofit and they went corporate a handful of years ago and then a Tai had merged with them.

[05:38] One thing I wanted to show was kind of the disconnect. I was poking around Twitter. There was a lot of kind of within the psychedelic industry and the psychedelic community, it kind of es and flows. This excitement sometimes is really not too much going on. And then sometimes when stuff like this happens, it's just reactions all over the place. And a lot of stuff was coming into my feed that was mostly retail investors who were kind of it seemed that they were mostly disappointed by the deal and the amount per share that they were going to be able to cash out. So let's see this first screenshot. This is Josh Hardman who runs Psychedelic Alpha. He did this poll. It was 413 votes. only 19% were excited about it, which kind of tracked with the sentiment and tweets that I was seeing.

[06:32] Most people were either not happy or were kind of meh feeling about it. I think one of the reasons, this next screenshot, one of the reasons I think is because Christian Anger Meyer in the past had been putting these huge valuations on a tie. Someone had posted. Seeing that old post about Christian saying a Thai could be a 20 billion dollar company pop up again is interesting timing. So yeah, there there was this number in people's minds that this was going to be this gigantic unicorn, you know, whatever. You'd be able to invest a little bit and cash out a ton. And so when this $2.8 billion, it's between 2.8, what's a guaranteed 2.8, it can go to 3.8 if the milestones are hit within 5 years.

[07:19] So when people see the you know the hyped up valuation at being five to seven times lower than what they were potentially expecting. I think that can definitely lead to some investors feeling a little bit deflated out there. It's unusual for I think us and investors in the psychedelic industry to be not excited about some news. So this is an interesting leveling of the playing field I suppose. Yeah. I mean I don't think it really surprises me. I have been personally been super bearish since kind of all of these companies came out cuz it was I think pretty apparent that to me my views this whole my views this whole time have basically been you're not going to be able to have this mental health revolution unless you focus on people's material realities and their social

[08:20] Relations. So, I think that's the built-in failure of all psychedelics, that they're not going to change the underlying conditions. You're going to dose someone, you're going to put them back right into the same environment that they came out of. That's not to say that it's not going to help out a certain percentage of people. I think it probably will, but what the public has been sold, I think, tracks with a valuation like this. That's sort of my kind of hot take on it. There was another person who had made a post and they said a roller coaster of emotions after the a Thai deal. Some quick thoughts. Tai's pipeline looks weaker than the hype suggested. 5M DMT has real safety flags and feels like a last resort option.

[09:06] Not waiting for the VLS001 data raises questions about their confidence. Let me know if I have this right. that the like if the thinking would be that if they thought they might have like a real winner on their hands, they would wait to have that data before selling. Is that kind of the thinking process? Cuz it's kind of like if you think you might draw a card that's going to make your hand in poker like amazing, you would like wait to play the hand essentially. My guess on this just without being you know an analyst for specifically for Tai here. My guess here is that they were offered a certain amount of money that was fair to them or there was other things coming in the future that you know maybe Lily could have bought another company one of these other two companies the Cybin what are they called Helis now or Definium which

[10:07] Is for formerly MindMed I don't know the answer is I don't know but a bird in the hand whole thing, you know? Yeah. That like if they felt like they had a real winner that was just like, you know, a little bit away from proving itself, you wouldn't agree to a deal to get that in order to ask for more money. Yeah, that that's how I was reading it. Like if you really believed your hype, if you're this company and you're really drinking your, you know, your Kool-Aid, whatever, you're you know, you're jazzed up about it and you thought you have a bunch of field advancing medicines on your hands, you wouldn't necessarily sell without having proven the multiple amazing options that you have in your pipeline. I think the fact is is that the board of a Thai like realized this is the best deal that they're likely to get and they had to take it.

[11:00] The tweet has a typo. It's VLS01. This has 001. Oh, nice. But really, but what it is is a transmucosal film formulation of DMT of NN DMT. Yeah. I don't This is some rando, by the way, just to point that out. I think it's interesting stuff to the points that he's making to talk about. Well, the reason I wanted to mention that is I think it's sort of you could see this as close reading that they don't believe their own hype. you know, that that's kind of how I'm reading it. And I think that that point is interesting to make because it's like it kind of supports a lot of what we've been saying about this space that the hype is kind of opportunistic, right? Because why he this Twitter person is saying why would they sell at such a low price without even knowing the data of their one of their flagship products unless they don't have a lot of confidence in it.

[11:54] Exactly. Yeah. And then the poster goes on to say that they believe that Lily got a high cheap, but I don't think these are the best-in-class assets that they're done buying, which it's going to be interesting to see what happens. Is is Lily going to scoop in and whatever is out there if they think it's worth it? Lily is sitting on just an ocean of cash right now. So it this might be the point where they just swoop in and buy up what's out there. And this person thought that Anger Myers hype machine needs a reality check as well. And I just think that's I think that's the kind of sentiment out there in retail. Oh, there was one more that I wanted to show which was Halter Ferguson Financial. They posted an open letter to the Atai Beckley board of directors and they said because of this immense potential we were deeply disappointed by the announced term of announced terms of the proposed acquisition by Eli Lily.

[12:49] We believe the agreed upon price of 675 per share even when including the 250 and contingent value rights which are to be collected over several years for $9.25 total potential value drastically undervalues a Thai Beckley and fails to compensate shareholders for the company's true intrinsic value. They're a wealth asset management firm and financial adviser company in Indianapolis it looks like. Yeah, they must have some assets in it. I don't not happy with this sale. All right, so I just wanted to kind of contrast some of the retail reactions with some of the Atai investors and some of the, you know, people behind it. This first one is from our friend Steve Jervson.

[13:37] He's a close to Elon. He's a he's an investor. He said psych psychedoc medicine is going mainstream. The world's largest pharmaceutical company is allocating $3.8 8 billion to acquire Atai Beckley, the largest acquisition so far for the sector. Congrats to Dr. Shernvas Ralph and the entire Atai team. He's so very excited for them. What was interesting, I think, to us when we were in chat was that so he's so excited about this. But this is the same guy who, you know, during 2024 to smear Psymposia out there in the press. He was accusing us of being backed by big pharma. And yet he's so excited now.

[14:22] This is a complete lie. And he has to go on to edit and I think delete this tweet. But very excited when Big Farmer comes in to back his bags. But you know, well, and notice another little hype trick that he's using there. He says allocating 3.8 billion, not disclosing that one of those billion is contingent upon, you know, seven years of perfect trial criteria and DEA rescheduling and all these things. So, it's just inflation. You know, he's just inflating it more. And also, he's not the only one that's accused Psymposia of big pharma funding, right? Hamilton Morris. That's what happened. And that's why MDMA was banned from being legalized.

[15:10] I think also Eona funding Psymposia played a role as well. Yeah, they're all in the same camp essentially. It's the [expletive] camp of just spewing lies. It's lie. And I don't know how else to say it. It's like a thing you could you say, "Oh, they accept big pharma." It's the equivalent of the deep state, you know? It's conspiratorial. It's intentional. They know it's not true. Yeah. You know, it just sounds good when they say it. One of the other Thai investors is Mike Novagrats. He was extremely happy about it. Congrats to Christian Angermier. It's been a 10-year sprint and you never got tired. As a shareholder, an early adopter, I couldn't be happier. Of course not.

[15:55] When you bought in at a very low amount, he's very excited. Another one is Kathy Wood. If you don't know Kathy Wood, she's like behind ARC. She said, "Wow, Christian Angmire is selling his psychedelic biotech company, A Thai, for 3.8 approximately $3.8 billion to the largest biotech company in the world, Lily. Not only a well-deserved return for it shareholders, this trans transaction validates Christian's heartfelt mission and vision." She goes on to say, "Blah blah blah." So she's very excited about this. She had recently bought, I think, quite a bit of a tie recently. I know that was news. She gets in and gets out of things pretty quick, too. She's one of Tesla and Musk's biggest people out in the press constantly.

[16:42] And then Christian Angmire had his post was, "Letting go is never easy. Over the past few weeks, I found myself getting a little stareyed thinking about a tie. But 10 years ago, psychedelics needed an evangelist. Today, they need commercialization." In my latest blog post, I share my thoughts on the future of medical psychedelics, my investment philosophy, and why I believe psychedelics could become an essential tool for humanity as we enter what I expect to be the most disruptive, most exciting, and most challenging period in our history. And that piece that he published is called My Love Letter to Psychedelics and Humanity's Future. We did a recent discussion about Christian Ingram anger and in that video we talked about the fact that when he says that it's a maybe an essential tool for humanity during this disruptive time he speaks very openly about getting the masses to accept the tech dystopian future that the elites are building out

[17:43] That he's building out him and his teal circle are building out. Yeah. So, I just wanted to kind of make that connection cuz it's like he's hinting at that echo in the language there, but he's not overtly saying it. We also talked about I think normally you did in that episode you may have even mentioned like you're not sure if he's going to stay in psychedelics altogether because he's chasing the peptides grift. I think I was saying that in chat. Yeah, I if I was in this space and I was like a big investor in this space with a lot, you know, a lot of equity in the space, I would totally want to get out after the last five years have been a total disaster in the space. So, you know, get out while you can.

[18:28] Now, there's way more profitable things for him to be invested in my opinion. I'm not long I'm not bullish on psychedelics at all. Yeah. a couple of the quotes he had from this Twitter this extended Twitter article, love letter. Yeah. So, I believe that psychedelic medicines will soon bring healing to hundreds of millions of people suffering from mental health disorders. I helped create the spark for the for an entirely new industry. So he also says, "Everyone I met early on had in one way or another quietly accepted that psychedelics might never return to mainstream medicine." Return. I was not willing to accept that. I have been in this space longer than he has. And that wasn't my impression that everybody like abandoned this.

[19:16] They quietly accepted that they weren't going to return. And what does that even mean that they're never going to return? People were working and agree with him or disagree with them. People were working in their own ways to make psychedelics to return. I think you can easily argue if you wanted to make psychedelics to return the way not to do it is the way that he's doing it, which is going to return it to the what the most tiny percentage of people ever. Like if you want something to not really be accessible, medicalize it. Well, like with MAPS, they were working on clinical trials forever and were trying to make MDMA into a medicine, but they were at the same time trying to change the way that kind of big pharma worked by doing things like not having patents and having aspects of it like open source.

[20:06] So they were trying to still create a mainstream medicine but change the way the medical industry functioned. Whereas for Anger Meer, he was more interested in taking the status quo of big pharma and merging that with psychedelics. For sure. I mean, there's other there's been people working to do this for decades, so to say. To for him to just come in and say, "Me, me, me." It's ridiculous to anyone who knows anything about this space. Like, yeah, there's a little bit of truth to some of the stuff that he says. I helped create a spark. Yeah, he dumped a [expletive] ton of money into the space. Like, I get it. He had connections in high places that that Absolutely.

[20:52] One of the reasons that we published in 2020, I think it was that an article about that a Thai was positioned to take the psychedelic throne for maps. It was obvious very early on that they were going to be a serious contender and that his association and investment in Compass Compass was going to make them a serious contender. Like when Peter Teal moves into a space, he's not [expletive] around, you know? Like if he's backing someone, he's doing diligence and he has power to make those things come to fruition. Which is the reason why I thought for a long time that it was going to be compass and a tie. It wasn't going to be Cybin. It wasn't going to be MindMed. Pay attention to these two companies.

[21:38] I'm not saying that those two companies are not going to be acquired or anything, but the heavy hitters have always been Compass and a Tie. And I think it was clear to anyone that was looking at it. Mike, you want to go down to the 10 years ago quote? Yeah. 10 years ago, psychedelics needed someone like me willing to convince the world. Today, the world is largely convinced. Now the challenge is to get these medicines into the hands of millions of patients around the globe as quickly as possible. This is delusional and dangerous for a lot of reasons which should be apparent and to most people who are listening to us talk about this. But like 10 years ago, psychedelics needed someone like me willing to convince the world. Well, you haven't convinced the world. Like this is a this is quite sensational. And to say that the world is largely convinced we have in the United States, how many states do we even have programs in several a few like there's pretty much no access anywhere to say that the world is convinced

[22:39] This is this isn't even remotely true. And then again, it's just more of this we need to go as fast as possible. And he's saying he's literally saying it. We need to get this into the bodies of millions of people as quickly as possible. It's like he's not even hedging it with as quickly and safely as possible, right? Put it in the water, right? It's like maybe it's time for me to slip some MDMA in the water. By the way, jokes aside, I do think it would work. Yeah, totally. It's It's totally ridiculous. It's like with the consumer, you know, LLMs and AI, you know, that people just like with chat GBT just getting it out to the masses as quickly as possible and then meanwhile there's all of these flaws in the way that it's operating that people are getting encouraged to end their lives and that sort of thing.

[23:29] It's like that's the sort of thing that happens if you rush forward this quickly without an attention to safety. 100%. And then they start, you know, did you guys see the Koshi? This is like betting markets. It's very similar to betting markets in a lot of cases. It's the same investors that are behind them. But this is the same like attitude just moving as fast just, you know? Well, it's also the same attitude with what he's talking about here, right? Like why do I spend my time on things seemingly as different as Bitcoin, AI, brain computer interfaces, etc. They're not different. He says they're not different, but the reasons he's saying it aren't they aren't different are not really why they're not different. You know, they're all on that like move as fast as possible mindset. They're all grifts in some way or another.

[24:15] They're all being, you know, they're these investors and these billionaires are taking advantage of each of these to get money. That's and what does he say? He says at one point that all his investments revolve around the concept of freedom. Yeah, freedom is somewhere in here. I just I wanted to and in a previous interview several years ago, just speaking of freedom, his quote was, "I fear that if we do wider legalization, it could be very detrimental and bad for those who really need it, and it could push back the whole effort. Society is like a rubber band. If you hit too hard, it comes back and it hits you. It hits you back. Let's go step by step." Who does society hit back? like is he not he's saying he's not part of society in this case, right? Like I don't really understand that quot end of that quote.

[25:01] Look, I get if you move really fast, things can come back and smack you in the face. Like, yeah, I get that. At the same time, it's just super hypocritical to say that you're your purpose for existence in investing is for freedom. Yeah. And then to say, yeah, I fear if we do wider legalization, it could be very detrimental and bad for people who need it. Like, I mean, we saw the clips in the last time we talked about him about, you know, talking about slavery as like a normal thing. Of course, he was talking about AIS as slaves, but he has no concept of freedom. He doesn't care about freedom as long as he's free and he can capture as much as he can and everyone else's freedom does not matter to him.

[25:48] Well, yeah. I mean it's freedom for capital and that's ultimately like I think all of those technologies fit together with this like latestage endstage capitalism that we're at where it's like all these markets have been saturated and people are starting to see the contradictions and so these are all ways either of like with you know the techutopian sort of technology promising that we're going to transcend the earth we're going to go to other planets and then the you know fixing people's mindset with psychedelics to be more in line with this vision. It kind of is very zeitgeisty. You know, they all fit with that kind of capitalism is looking for ways to continue, you know, parasetizing off of the planet and beyond it. Yeah. I think that's more accurate view of his he's a late stage capitalist and he's getting in these like he's like investing quickly in these I don't know perceived market solutions like right at the end as the house is on fire.

[26:45] [laughter] Like it's very bizarre. It's very bizarre. He's very like you can just see how he's a very like teal protege in his investment choices and his worldview. I don't know. All right. I think that's enough on that. So, this next piece in the Wall Street Journal that just came out, they came out with this little mini documentary, 15-minute mini documentary called The Race to Commercialize the World's Most Powerful Psychedelic, which I think is interesting in the timing of the release on this, which is on July 14th, and this was just several days before the Attai Lily deal was announced. The Thai Atai was just acquired by Eli Liy. And you know this documentary gets into pretty much is focused on 5me DMT and kind of the world surrounding that.

[27:39] This hype surrounding that. According to the Wall Street Journal, little the description that they had was an obscure and extremely powerful psychedelic drug called 5me DMT or BUFFO is drawing intense interest from the pharmaceutical industry where biotech companies like Aai Beckley and GH research are racing to turn it into a commercially available treatment for severe mental health disorders like depression, anxiety, and PTSD. The Wall Street Journal took a look and took an inside look at how the psychedelic is being used at unregulated clinics in Mexico and why companies are betting that it could soon turn into a billiondoll blockbuster drug. So, we have a handful of clips that we're going to get into here. We got like six clips that we're going to go through. One thing that just stood out to me when you go on the YouTube video, which we'll link, three of the top comments had the most up votes on there.

[28:27] One of them said, "It's only illegal until corporate can commercialize and monopolize." The other comment said, "All the drugs they did in the 90s at raves are becoming the next fuel for private equity." And someone else said, "Boy, I can't wait for private equity to inshitify it." Yeah. Just a few other like highlevel points of like why we thought this was going to be interesting to talk about is that it's really a it's a great time capsule of this moment of the psychedelic hype and you can see the influence of like the still the Burning Man kind of like culty subculture as much as they're trying to appeal to the investors like you can still see that the legacy of where this industry came from and the way that they're talking about the five MO All right, let's get into it.

[29:14] This clip is a few minutes long, so just tell me if you want it to be paused at any point. And on your next exhale, dropping your attention into your body, taking a moment to notice your breathing and simply whatever else is present with you physically, cognitively, emotionally. Every week, a new batch of veterans arrives at the Mission Within, a clinic that specializes in psychedelic therapies. They come here as a last resort after conventional mental health treatments haven't worked. and take another two breaths. Then when you feel ready, you can bring your attention back to the room. Today, a group is preparing to take one of the most powerful psychedelics in the world. All right, fellas. So, we'll talk a little bit about tomorrow's medicine. 5 Mod DMT, often known as BUFFO, poison secreted from the back of the Colorado River toad or Chiron desert toad.

[30:02] And this is what the medicine looks like. It's weighed out by dose in these little vials and they screw into this pipe. 5 Mod DMT is illegal in the US, but here in Mexico, where it's still unregulated, clinics like The Mission Within are using it to treat veterans with severe mental health disorders like depression, anxiety, and PTSD. Visits can cost thousands of dollars and need to be booked far in advance. The wait list is currently 6 months long. What led you to seek out 5met? I've tried the traditional route. I've done talk therapy, multiple SSRIs, SNRIs, and I felt like with those the efficacy only lasted so long. The depression that came along with that started to resurface over time.

[30:50] I tried the VA, tried talk therapy, I tried AA, I tried the gym, I tried all the things. I remember even then I would like be in the shower and I was like, "Dude, there's no way life can be this hard." And so just through looking on veteran forums and talking to multiple veterans that I discovered the utilization of these alternative medicines and they were scary. What was scary to you about it? Well, watching videos on YouTube, it's some very intense experiences with people ingest the medicine. I couldn't see how that would serve me, but at the time I felt like I didn't have another choice. I remember when I was coming down the stairs to be in the space with the medicine. I remember thinking, "What am I getting myself into?"

[31:36] Can I say a lot of prayer for you? A 5 Mod DMT trip only lasts about 30 minutes, but it can cause physical shaking, loud noises, and on rare occasions, prolonged dissociation. The Mission Within says that about 5% of its patients describe the experience as too intense. But on the other side, many also find both immediate and longlasting relief. The first thing for me that stands out, I was going to pause it, but the first thing to me that stands out was when he sort of frames it when he's talking about it, he sort of frames that like it's going to be a oneandone. You know, they're going to take it one time and it's going to be lifelong relief.

[32:24] And that might happen, but to go into it thinking that that is like what is going to happen is not the way to go into it. Well, that actually comes up explicitly in a later clip where it's like the interviewer is like and yet you're back here for like, you know, a refresh. So, and like they don't really fully connect the dots that there's this claim for lasting efficacy and yet there was a need to return there. So yeah, the claims for confidence that this is like addressing the underlying root of trauma is not a surefire thing in the research literature in people's lives, you know, as we see people who've had these types of experiences.

[33:11] So I it's one of the indicators that this is a very hype oriented narrative. Also we should mention that the fact of the focus on veterans, this is something that a lot of the funders in the industry taking a page out of the playbook of the opioid industry has specifically cultivated these veteran retreats and, you know, bringing veterans to have these experiences in order to produce exactly these types of documentaries to have people watch them and say, you know, of course we have to do this. who would stand in the way of healing veterans who are so respected in the society. That was all engineered. It is a performance paid for by the investors in the industry and the overpromising at a time when the safety nets are not developed of cures are going to be at the expense of veterans as we have described over and over again.

[34:07] And the other thing I wanted to call attention to is just the spirituality that was involved in that. I mean this video is being portrayed as like this is the future of mental health care and yet it's like even some of the words that were shown on this you know in terms of this the ceremonies it was like praying for the veterans to be shown what they need to see that's not how we usually approach medicine in the west certainly so I thought it was interesting that they're showing that side of it but there's not a lot of unpacking about the implications of having this sort of like a spiritual medicine in the hands of big pharma. Well, I think the claim that the man was making in that about like you were saying, you can just do it once and you're like healed.

[34:56] You know, there isn't good durability data on 5me. I mean, there's barely even blinding, you know, in a proper randomly controlled trial. the blind, you know, it's functional on blinding anyway because, you know, if you're taking a ego dissolving substance, but they really have no idea how long it can last. And like you said, they're going back. So, so I don't understand if they're marketing it as this durable silver bullet cure because it seems to be like a pretty common perception that these things are just one and done and you're, you know, your depression is healed. I think the majority of like if we were to have a lot of data on you know across psychedelics from and you can expand it take ketamine to MDMA to psilocybin to five I think that you're going to see for the most amount of people they're going to need to redose every between two and six months continuously.

[35:55] I think that that could probably change if during that integration process the things that were most affecting them were changed right so it's obviously going to be all over the place for everybody I think you know in a perfect world if they were able to oh my the source of my depression is related to financial related things or it's a problem with my father that You know, I think if those things are actually worked on, you're going to end up seeing a probably an improvement and maybe you are going to be done. But I think for a lot of people those changes won't be made and they're going to need to continually go go back in and like what's the difference between an afterglow of a super intense mystical experience and actually cure you know treating the cause of the depression that you have whether that's material or

[36:56] You know some underlying thing we just don't know. Well and this question gets back to what you were saying about the blinding issues. A lot of people in the psychedelic field, they get annoyed because they're like, "Oh, it's this weird rule that we're just imposing from the way old pharma worked onto this thing where it's like we don't need to care about blinding." But if you think through the implications of like you could see that people were really being held and cared for in that setting way beyond what people experience in regular medical care whether it's like you know you're part of this you know community of brothers who have all are all working to heal each other in this you know you have to travel the country because this is such a repressed kind of like thing and you're treated with so much respect and told that you're part of something that's going to be able to help others.

[37:46] It's like all of that in the mix with this huge experience of like really transforming your perspective on reality. You can convince people, you can persuade them that they are healed when they are not always as healed as they might assert. We hear this over and over again with people who have had these types of psychedelic experiences and then they believe that they're healed, but there's all kinds of ongoing problems in their lives, but they're kind of just overlooking those because of this narrative that they're strongly believing in. So, we have to be able to disentangle those factors in order to be able to make claims about efficacy for people in general. Yeah. Yeah, it brings it, you know, it's like a lot of the studies are talking about the purely pharmaceutical or pharmacological effects of these substances as like a therapy or a treatment for, you know, mental health disorders.

[38:43] And if they ignore the therapy or the setting, which you can't put on a label, you know, you can't prescribe one dose of 5 MO per week with, you know, your buddies at a nice retreat on the beach. There are studies that show that it's no better than label anti-depressants, SSRIs, which aren't super effective. So, it's like if we did the same thing for the current psychiatric medication world, if we said, "Yeah, you're taking Prozac now, you know, for 3 months, but you're going to be on a beach in this cool house with all these like, you know, spiritually enlightened people." You know, what does the data look like there? 100%. That's not exciting, though, is it? I mean, if someone put me on Prozac on a beach for three months, could be cool, right? Yeah.

[39:28] But also, and the people backing mission with it is the industry. Just to little disclaimer there as well. So, what happens when they label these medicines and it doesn't come with the therapy and it doesn't come with these retreats and it doesn't come with these spiritual gu you know, spiritual guides and all these things. What do we, you know, what are the results going to look like? Have they ever tried it? I would say the closest thing right now, at least scalable thing is probably somebody like Mind Bloom, right? It's probably the closest thing. Just give people ketamine, go through the motions with a Zoom meeting and let them do it on their own. Yeah.

[40:14] No idea. Okay, so let's see this next clip. the change, how quickly the change happened and the relief that was almost instantaneous after partaking in the medicine have lasted until today. That was 15 months ago when I had my first 5 MOD DMT experience. So, this is like maintenance or it's like a reset to get you back to where you were 15 months ago. The healing journey that I'm on, it's not going to be over anytime soon, but utilizing this has been a significant step change for me. I think the best way for me to describe my first 5 MOD DMT experience was when I walked away from it, it was like I had had many years of therapy just in a weekend. I can't help but laugh at that janky pipe. [laughter] I don't know.

[41:01] I don't know why. Why don't they use something nicer if there are so many nicer options for sure there? I just want I want to point out a few things that that was the clip I was referring to when you were talking about efficacy because he was saying, you know, until today, you know, it has lasted and then the interviewer is like, "Oh, so you're just here for a refresh, you know, and it didn't just start to taper off that day, [laughter] you know, like it's like there's a reason why he's coming back." And so it's like there's already a disconnect between the story he's saying. It's like he's saying the story that is the industry hype narrative which I find very suspicious. Same with the aspect of like it was like I had all this therapy in a single day. That is the way that investors talk about this field.

[41:48] And so it's like because we know all this stuff about suggestability and then people having these big meaningful experiences in the context of these narratives, it's very possible that those industry narratives are in are influencing the way that people are talking about this. Yeah, I appreciated his honesty in saying that his healing journey is going to take a long time. Like that's the reality and I think a lot of people in this space don't acknowledge that. I've spoken to some practitioners and like the reality is some people are not going to be healed at all like and we don't hear that at all. Well, this also it connects to I mean there there's some truth to it of course but it's also it functions as a thought terminating cliche in the industry as well where it's like when people are pressed on but why are you still doing it if you're so healed or why do you have these distressing symptoms? if you're healed or you're abusing your family members if you're healed, people will say, "Well, my healing journey is ongoing."

[42:49] And it's kind of like a get out of jail free card oftentimes. Like I even included this in my commentary to the FDA about the MAPS therapy because it's like the way that they describe it is that any outcome is proof of the effectiveness because they have created rhetorical justifications to explain anything that can occur as evidence of the unfolding he healing process. Well, it also like it brings to mind what the definition of healing healed is, you know, like what you're saying. It's a thought terminating rhetorical tool. Anyone can say they're not healed for as long as they want to. And who's actually defining healing? If it's the insurance companies, it's are you able to work again, you know, from your disorder or what? And if they say yes, does that just mean they can't ever take it again?

[43:36] It's complicated. All right, so we're going to move on to this next clip. This is Shernabas Rao on the benefits of psychedelics. He's the co-founder and CEO of ATAI. The medical promise of 5 MOD DMT has also captured the attention of the pharmaceutical industry where the market for psychedelic therapies is projected to reach $10 billion by 2034. Today, a growing pool of biotech Do you think that was intentional when they put the what's that called? What's that guy called? I don't know what he's called. I have one. It's right there. It's got the glasses on. That's the pseudocience thing. I believe that no chronology. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Do you think this is an intentional like editorial? Like I don't know, but I know that that that a Thai fan for sure is. Right. Where is it?

[44:21] The market for psychedelic therapies is projected to reach 10 billion by 2034. Today, a growing pool of biotech companies are racing to turn 5 MODMT into a commercially available medicine. Is this a Burning Man? This is a Burning Man. This is a Burning Man. This is in 2019. And I think I may be one of the few people that was actually able to expense Burning Man as a business expense. Shrina Vas Ralph is the co-founder and CEO of Atai Beckley, a publicly traded biotech company that's trying to bring psychedelic therapies to market. A Tai Beckley's leading candidate is a synthesized version of 5 Mod DMT. Most anti-depressants, you get a pill and you know get a bottle and you go home and you take it every day. That's basically how it's been for a very long time. The problem has been that people get side effects immediately.

[45:09] They don't get benefit immediately and many of them don't get benefit at all. The big benefit with the psychedelics, you got rapid onset and you got durability. Well, the second part of that is totally unknown whether they have durability or not. The durability studies have [expletive] sucked so far. Yeah. Definitely overpromising on the data there. And I also just wanted to talk a bit about the What do you all think of that Burning Man reference? Because it's kind of like bizarrely just inserted with no explanation and no context for it. There's no reason like the video doesn't say why. Yeah. It kind of like boom. I think it's kind of like boomer. It's boomer [expletive] I don't know. I think Bernie man is like super cringe. Like just as cringe as a Cybert truck at this point.

[45:57] So like I think it's him think he's like boomer guy thinking it's cool. he's going to get some street cred by saying it. I don't know that that's my maybe that's my super cynical take on it. But I don't think because it's like the fact that a psychedelic CEO was business expensing trips to Burning Man if you read between the lines says a lot about the state and the his recent history of the psychedelic industry where it's like so much of this has emerged from networking at Burning Man and you know where a lot of people were taking some of these various substances. We reported in the psychedelic syndicate about how people like Rick Doblin of maps was for a long time using Burning Man as like fun recruiting ground. So it's like there that whole psychedelic tech culture that this comes from was was hinted at there, but they didn't really explain the details.

[46:44] But I think you're right that it was a little bit of a flex to kind of make this seem cool as well. Yeah, I think it's both. I mean he's giving us a window into how these like first of all the state of what Burning Man and the counterculture as we have called it in the past has turned into and still thinks it's this counterculture thing and it's kind of cool. So maybe some people will you know maybe he'll be able to bring in some more alternative folks or something. So yeah I think it's a mix of street cred and like actual credentials. He's like, I officially have, you know, expensed Burning Man on my, you know, CEO card. And it actually was an expensible thing cuz it was, you know, he was chatting up investors.

[47:29] That's where they all meet. I think that's where Dablin within the last couple years had met Antonio Gracius, who's his new sugar daddy. Well, and we know like Kimell Musk, he was on the board. Elon Musk used to fly in on jets. He probably still does. Like it's a billionaire paradise now. In one of the upcoming clips, there's another moment where I think red in light of this clip, you could also say that he might be throwing some breadcrumbs to the people who are from the psychedelic community who might see this sort of like big pharma approach to these substances as threatening, you know, to their culture to say like, "No, no, no. I came from this." And we'll see the other clip what I'm talking about as well. Is it in the next clip? So this next clip is about the Spravado comparison.

[48:18] What do you think the sort of market would be for a drug like 5 MOD DMT if your version was was approved? I mean so the analysts that follow us do put out estimates and it's all several billion dollars. Spado Johnson and Johnson's ketamine derived nasal spray has already proven the concept. The first and still only commercially available psychedelic therapy is being administered under supervision at clinical sites throughout the country and it's ballooned into a nearly $2 billion blockbuster drug. The psychedelics they will be kind of like Spado. You go in, you get dosed, get monitored for 2 hours, you get discharged, but instead of coming in every week, you're coming in every 2 months, 3 months. The paradigm of going to the doctor's office was established by Spado.

[49:06] That's where everybody I feel like everybody knows it and it's just not it's the thing that's really not talked about because that's it's going to be similar probably to psilocybin once approved or MDMA once approved. I know and I know initially the FDA in the negotiations with Doblin and Doblin's team they were going to be they were considering I don't know where this has gone but they were considering putting in like a maximum amount of times you could actually be dosed lifetime amount. I had not heard that. That's interesting. Yeah, it was in negotiations. I'm not sure where it ended up where it ended up going. And I was also about that going to say, you know, we were talking about the big pharma accusations that we were funded by big pharma. And a lot of those narratives for years had been kind of encouraged by this false narrative that big pharma is not going to be okay with this because it's going to cure you with the one and done model and then they're not going to be able to make money.

[50:02] And so you can see how far that discourse has gone where now it's like reassuring the investors know this is a maintenance therapy that people are going to return to on a regular basis. 100%. All right. So we're going to move on to this next clip. And it's no longer just the private sector that's rooting them on. All right. So here's where the magic happens. This is certainly not a job that I thought I was going to have a few years ago. Matt Zorn spent years challenging the federal government's chokeold on schedule one drugs. Now he's on the other side working within the administration to help speed up research. I think that we have a mental health issue where, you know, I'm not going to sort of disparage the current treatment. It's just as a factual matter. They just don't reach everyone.

[50:48] They're not efficacious for everyone. A lot of people just don't have alternatives. And if a drug is shown to be efficacious or has a chance of working, like why wouldn't you want that to be available? Zorn's boss, health secretary Robert Kennedy Jr. has gone even further. This line of therapeutics has tremendous advantage if given in a clinical setting, and we are working very hard to make sure that that happens within 12 months. In April, President Trump signed an executive order to expand access and research into psychedelic therapies. It was written by Zorn. Mr. President, I want to thank Matt Zord, who's hiding in the back there, who actually on Sunday wrote a draft for this. Why are psychedelic therapies and support for research around psychedelic therapies a priority for this department?

[51:36] You know, there there are medicines that are approved that are incremental improvements, but there hasn't kind of been a paradigm shift that's really been transformative. And I think the hope and what preliminary evidence is suggesting is that these medicines are more than just a marginal improvement. It seems to me like in a few years it's not unreasonable to think that some of these will be available to people who've been seeking them out in like the gray market going down to Mexico to seek them out for a long time now. 5me is is a it's a promising compound that you know potentially can have negative you know adverse events negative experiences like everybody knows about so-called bad trips. This is across the board even with the current compounds. I mean I think that the evidence is like sufficient for approval but like how do these things perform out in the wild is going to be like a super important thing for us to understand.

[52:30] Since Trump took office last year, biotech startups developing psychedelic therapies have seen their stock prices surge. A Thai Beckleys is up by about 250%. We just want to get these drugs to as many people as possible and help as many people as possible. And that really does require this more medical approach. That is how you get scalability. That is how you get it to as many people as you can. It's such a blatant foreshadowing of the Eli Liy deal. I mean, it's like it was two days before the deal was announced and like they're showing a tie, you know, swag in the retreat center and they're, you know, pumping up the stock price on the thing and it's quite obvious and blatant.

[53:15] Yeah. I mean, there's the consulting class is very good at, you know, timing I was going [laughter] to Yeah. timing the public's like exposure to specific kinds of narratives. they've like refined this many decades of the dark arts of mass persuasion and so we can see that playing out here. I also want to mention so Zorn, you know, we can I was going to do a disclaimer I think. [laughter] Yeah, go ahead. No, just a disclaimer that Matt Zorn was our lawyer on Church of Silomthoxin case. He was our lead lawyer. I helped bring him on to our defense team. been friends with him for several years now. So, just throwing that out there.

[54:00] I think it's important. I disagree with him on a handful of things that he said. He's someone that I've been able to openly disagree with and in conversations about our thoughts on these things. And yeah, he said something at the beginning there that I was I actually want to bring it up again. There was one point to help speed up research. I think that we have a mental health issue where, you know, I'm not going to sort of disparage the current treatment. It's just as a factual matter. They just don't reach everyone. They're not efficacious for everyone. I don't know exactly what he's getting at when he says they don't reach everyone. It just means that there are people who it doesn't resolve the issue for.

[54:48] Yeah. So it works for some people, but it doesn't work for everyone. So he doesn't want to do the pill shaming kind of the SSR shaming that a lot of people in the industry do. So he's saying like yes, they're helpful to some people, but there's an unmet need still with the existing treatment options. Okay. I wasn't sure the reach if that's if that was intended by what the word reach meant there. Okay, then I don't disagree with them on that. I wanted to point out I mean part of the we have a big I think like I personally have a big worldview difference from Matt Zorn and his perspective there and I think you know potentially illuminating from Zoran's perspective he did an interview with psychedelic alpha some years ago it was that the chaos piece that they put out and he mentions I think that there's a really good case that we shouldn't be testing for efficacy and that we and that can be and post approval or that there are ways to have medicines on the market in an off label or no label way while still testing for

[55:49] Efficacy. So what he's saying there is like you know he's I think that's potentially part of why he was brought into the FDA. It was this interest in pairing back the requirements to get a drug approved for the market to make it easier, less expensive for that to happen. But part of the issue here is that safety is not a absolute framework. Safety and the risk that people are, you know, willing to take on or not is a function of how effective the treatment is seen as potentially being. So something that is potentially curative, if you have cancer, you're willing to take on safety risks in order to potentially access that. and you can have as a you know you can make that informed call about whether you're willing to take on the risk.

[56:42] The idea that we can separate safety and efficacy when we're approving medicines for the public is putting a lot of risk onto the public in a similar way that when I was mentioning open AAI chatbt earlier it's kind of like using the public as guinea pigs for other medicines and especially when he goes on to say this why are psychedelic therapies and support for research around psychedelic therapies a priority for this department. You know, there there are medicines that are approved that are incremental improvements, but there hasn't kind of been a paradigm shift that's really been transformative. And I think the hope and what preliminary evidence is suggesting is that these medicines are more than just a marginal improvement.

[57:30] It seems to me, so first off, that is I think quite disputed. I don't think that is a an accurate statement to say first off and then further and then he goes on to say something else. In a few years it's not unreasonable to think that some of these will be available to people who've been seeking them out in like the gray market going down to Mexico to seek them out for a long time now. 5me is is it's a promising compound that you know potentially can have negative you know adverse events, negative experiences like everybody knows about so-called bad trips. This is across the board even with the current compounds. I mean, I think that the evidence is like sufficient for approval, but it's like how do these things perform out in the Yeah, it's that like we think it's sufficient for approval, but how are they going to actually be out in the wild when you know they scale up to this is one of the biggest plagues in this industry is most of these trials are not many people like you know I

[58:31] Think the favorite is basically n equals 12 and then let's make some statement about that and then let's hype the [expletive] out of it, you know, like in the smoking order or some of these other some of these other things. So phase three clinical trials are bigger like hundreds of people, but still not sure comparable to a lot of other research. Yeah. I just think his position is based on kind of flimsy assumptions in a lot of, you know, and the higher it gets, it seems to get a little more flimsy big time. And I think it's a I think he knows this and I think he knows this and I think with Matt it's a risk that he believes is worth taking. Yeah. Yeah. And I think this is also playing into the wellness vacation of public health that we have talked about before where it's like it's the golden age of like snake oil, you know, with the maha movement and it's like this is exactly the regulatory landscape that that wellness grifters would want is

[59:32] Like yeah, we just make sure that something's not going to kill people and then we can like overpromise and just let the bodies Yeah. Let it rip. let the bodies figure things out down the line. And it's the people who are the most vulnerable, the most marginalized in society that are going to bear the highest cost for that kind of an attitude. And again, if I was an alien just like watching all of this, I would think this whole movement is so it's so the again the biggest blind spot is that they're trying the world is [expletive] burning right now and they're trying to they're like trying to plug these holes. Like the people are ready to [expletive] rise up and burn [expletive] down and like take up pitchforks because they can't afford food, medicine, shelter.

[1:00:23] They got debt. They got all this. And you get this like largely, you know, you get this industry that's coming in and just selling you little things to plug all these holes that keep springing and it just seems kind of goofy to me to like this is the solution. You're not you don't see the invisible thing that's right in front of your [expletive] face. like this is why are people getting so depressed and sad and you know I can't escape from it. I sometimes I sound like a broken record with this, but I think it's I think it is I think it is the most important [expletive] that there is. Like you're not a serious person if you're talking about mental health and you're not advocating for what are probably like socialist positions to help fix society.

[1:01:16] You're not a serious person. And if you think that you're going to treat this issue through like corporate solutions, you're goofball. I don't like know how else to say that. You're not serious about this. Well, this also relates to the Death Notes Substack by Jeff Shance that I'm a fan of. There was just three days ago he put another piece out called Proletarian Barbarism and it opens kind of alluding to what's going on here. He says for those about to be called in this sort of phase of snuff capitalism that we're moving into or democide palative paliotative democracy aims to sedate us as we dutifully accept our looming demise. Civilizing processes seek to inculturate us to restrain ourselves within systems of domination and elimination.

[1:02:04] I mean that's like what the capitalists are doing here. It's like there is a fire like you're saying going on that like the planet is is being destroyed and they're realizing the there is this rising anger and so you know trying to just remove the barriers to mass medicating people with these suggestability enhancing treatments is pretty nefarious to me. It's like how many cases of cancer do we have now in like Iowa because of just pumping chemicals into people's water supply? Ohio right now is is there's a ton of heat in Ohio because the EPA appears to be potentially making a move. It's not finalized because there's been a lot of push back as far as my understanding, but like lowering emissions standards for the data centers so they can pump it back into public water supplies.

[1:02:59] And we're like arguing. We're like bickering over these like little psychedelics that are gonna affect like a Well, it's like what Anger Meer was talking about when we talked about in the Anger Meer episode about societal adjustment disorder, right? Like we're treating this, you know, what we're calling depression. like all these people are depressed and they're angry and so we're just going to like you know sedate them with these new suggestible substances that you know have a lot of benefits for the capitalist class to be able to shut them up, calm them down, heal them maybe and you know they'll get money out of it too. You know I'm going to push back just to have some fun. I'm going to push back with you on this because if that they were if they really wanted to do that, if they really wanted to unleash the soma upon the plebs, wouldn't they be just pushing for just straight up decriminalization?

[1:03:59] Like more in the way of marijuana, like getting marijuana into the brains of everybody to like to soothe them over from the [expletive] societal collapse and chaos. Well, I think that they know that it is a pluropotent. The these psychedelics are suggestible in any way. They want to control the narrative. They want to not only control, they want to control the narrative and they want to control the means of access. So, by controlling the access and the narrative, they don't want everybody to just have it willy-nilly. They want to be able to say who gets it when and why because then they can ensure that the Soma gets to the right people and appease. But wouldn't you want all the people? But wouldn't you want all the people to have it? If it worked that way, they know that it doesn't slice. If it worked that way and if it worked the way that, you know, I guess historical misconceptions would have it be that it is, you know, it just makes everyone calm and chill and everyone happy or whatever, but they know that that's not the case.

[1:04:57] Nacha's written papers on that not being the case. you know, right-wing psychedelia, the whole situation of the suggestability thing being, you know, psychedelics make your priors more intense or like, you know, if you believed in authoritarianism to a strong degree, taking psychedelics isn't going to just suddenly make you, you know, libertarian, anti- athoritarian. It's going to make you depending on your set and setting and influence and cultural, you know, situation. I guess my question here is if they were effective at doing this is that it doesn't seem that this plan is sufficient to alleviate pressures against them. But this gets back to what we were talking about in that other one about that sci-fi what's that movie where it's like you're like Logan's Run.

[1:05:46] It's like when you're able to loves Rogan Logan's Run. It's the perfect metaphor for what's happening. I mean it's like if you are able it's not just about the drugs in general. It's about when you create this pomp and circum circumstance you know this these bread and circuses around your ideological project then you can get people to you know feel like they are that they have a that they have a they have hope or a chance feel like they are intrinsically finding their true self when they're actually coming into touch with your you know this is actually going to connect to our last se segment about the grifter psychedelic narciss narcissist gurus where it's like there is a whole you know the something that we haven't talked about yet that maybe we could touch on in a future episode especially now that the tape brothers are in hot water is that there is a big overlap between pickup artistry techniques and like influence techniques with

[1:06:47] Suggestability enhancement and if you can control the framework the definition of healing the acceptable narratives and you're giving people these professional, you know, medical treatments, you're better able to control the outcomes than if it's just loose in the population and you have anarchists doing mutual aid support for their own communities. That's not what they want. They want this, you know, healed is not resisting narrative, not resisting with their version of where society should be going. Yeah. Yeah, I think one of my pet conspiracy theories is maybe that's a big part of why they're starting with veterans, you know. I mean, they have veterans have been through the whole rigma roll of, you know, authority and everything like that and they're, you know, patriotic and whatnot.

[1:07:40] They're not going to give this to anarchists that are depressed. they're going to give it to veterans with PTSD and like at least for now that's it's kind of a window into I think the plan and why it's actually you know to answer your question I think that's why they're doing it. They're not they won't unleash it to the masses because the masses aren't who they care about. I just have I just I this is always like kind of the source of some internal disagreements that we have on the team and I'm kind of usually this guy. I just when I look at like the investor class and some of these guys, I just tend to think that they are happy to make the money. They don't really give a [expletive] as long as they can put out data as long as they can make a bunch of money here. I think that's true. I just don't think that it's I think there's I'm not saying everybody Yeah.

[1:08:26] I think there's many angles here, right? Like they know they can make money and keep making money by doing it's a long strategy, right? And maybe not all of this is like super explicit to them, but it's clear, I think, to people that are really paying attention that some of these patterns are just like it's how they make money. It's how they keep control. It's how they perpetuate the systems that allow them to continue to make money and keep control. Cuz I don't think it is an accident that they picked psychedelics. There were other areas that they could have hyped up and said, you know, oh, this is healing. I think it, you know, on the Teal side, I think Peter Teal has a very coherent political project that all of his investments are rowing in the same direction of. And I think it does get back to this, you know, he's been very open about democracy being a barrier to, you know, I think my push back to there would I agree with you with that point.

[1:09:23] I think that Teal is kind of I don't want to say singular, but in that direction like there's like everybody and then there's Teal, you know, he's prot Myers said it himself, right? He's investigating Well, you're naming the people who I'm going to agree with you with that I think are in that camp, but they're the hardcore Tesalists, right? If you want to call it that. like they're the ones that have a purposeful coherent narrative around this. Maybe some has been the most explicit on all of them. And yeah, so maybe there are like, you know, a significant number of these other investors that are just in it for the money and hoping to ride. I don't know what's going on like there's some drug here.

[1:10:11] I don't there's some drug here. It's going to make me, you know, what's my ROI on that? Okay. Sure. Yeah. and they probably want it to the masses to a, you know, stronger degree, but I think there's more calculation going on a little bit behind the scenes by the folks that do have like a real strategy written down. Yeah, it's certainly not all the investors. Some are just hitching their wagons onto something that they see as a money maker. But between all of the explicit quotes that we have from this testal cohort of psychedelic investors, this has a bigger role beyond just healing for them in terms of like you know this another quote from Jeff's piece that Death Notes piece is threats to the market are posed as threats to civilization itself.

[1:10:58] There are threats to the market right now with the way that society is changing. Anger meer has openly identified that this could be a way of addressing it. And I think the capitalists are extra excited about investing in something that promises to subdue the barbarity of the masses who are not going along with the program of civilization. Yeah. I mean the other thing is they're like running out of capitalism is starting to run out of things in a sense like everything just everything's AI at this point you know even things that you don't necessarily think are AI or attached to AI at this point it's sort of one trade at this point and what newer you get AI you get psychedelics what betting markets like what are the new things so they're reaching further out I think you know yeah that's a good point I mean they an inherent And you know, characteristic of capitalism is to just exploit everything, right?

[1:11:57] I mean, it needs to consume in order to continue. And so, we're going to start reaching the margins eventually of the earth, which we are, you know, and when they run out, you put a conservative government in there to cleave off parts of the state so we can privatize them. This is the whole Bush administration. This is what they've always wanted to do. This is why they want to deregulate, specifically deregulate so we can steal it from the state. When you get back to people like Steve Dervetson saying that con traditional religion is a threat to the Silicon Valley plans for the future and saying, you know, kind of really leaning into the psychedelic religion both in the state models, you know, really talking in that language about psychedelics and supporting the non-medical because it's they are supporting hierarchical versions of psychedelic access some of the funders in the state models.

[1:12:54] We covered that in the psychedelic syndicate. So it's not like it's only medicine but they do want to control through hierarchical ways of accessing psychedelics and the narratives surrounding them. There are competing factions within the psychedelic investor club who are you know they want their own little piece of the pie. Like my understanding is anger doesn't really [expletive] with the PSFC people. He's his own. He's got his own thing going on. PSFC has their own thing going on. Everybody wants to kind of carve up their own little fftom of psychedelia at this point at this moment in time when all of these investors are saying the quiet part out loud about how this isn't just about healing for them that they see they have a particular vision of what how they want the masses to behave and they think that psychedelics are a tool to help get people in line with that vision.

[1:13:48] I don't think it's like in workers interest to just assume that this is just about money and to kind of give them the benefit of the doubt on this because I don't think they've earned that benefit of the doubt. I think the writing is on the wall personally. Yeah. And I also think that they will fail and I'm not trying to just assume that. I think there are I think there are notable investors in this space who have their own whatever sinister whackadoodle kind of weird sci-fi testal agenda. And then I do think there are people who they don't know what's going on. They want money. They're totally ignorant. They're idiots. They just invest in whatever. You know, I'm not trying to dismiss the kind of the dystopian investors out there at all. Yeah.

[1:14:34] Let's get into this last clip. Barring a major setback, a Tybec's drug could hit the market in as little as four or 5 years. Until then, international clinics like the Mission Within will remain the only legal route. A few hours after their treatment, the veterans gathered at the beach to reflect on their experience. How you feeling, man? Incredible. And to be clear, you're not on 5 MO DMT right now. This is me all natty, baby. Yeah, this is yeah, this is me not on the 5me GMT at all whatsoever. Since I got out of the room, I've been, you know, deeply contemplative, but also just kind of full of joy. I feel like you had a really clear sense of what you were hoping to get out of this. Are you where you were hoping to be? Absolutely.

[1:15:19] It was very cathartic and I felt that it was rebirth of sorts. This is like the last door that I knocked on, you know, and I like I know it works. So, yeah, part of that the reason I wanted to show the end of that clip and talk about it is because of just how irresponsible that framing was to have people who are grinning ear to ear in the immediate afterlow and then to portray that as all natty like this is just they're back to baseline. This is their new baseline. no acknowledgement of the fact that the afterglow period can be its own altered state of you know enthusiasm that doesn't always translate into enduring isn't that why we're all here.

[1:16:07] So it's like just the and the field knows that the field is very aware that that's the case. So, the fact that this is the narrative that they're pushing just shows how manipulative the industry is being at this moment in time, trying to portray this as like, well, look at these guys. They're happy and healed now. Don't you want your family to be like these guys? And then it also frames people like us who are trying to raise reasonable concerns about things that can be done safer that's not going to be the at the expense of the most vulnerable people in society. It frames us as standing in the way as responsible for the deaths of veterans and that's dangerous in itself to kind of put people who are raising genuine concerns into that kind of a position.

[1:16:53] I mean that last clip looks like an ad. It looks like, you know, what are the it's like the old Prozac ads of like, you know, then it shows that the sun comes out and the smile goes up and they're on a beach and it's just like absurdly blatant and I think it is to your I mean it is dangerous and there's no acknowledgement of that. They don't even say that it was in the immediate after. This guy's like laughing his ass off like he is on something. It's not all natty, you know. Yeah. So it just all of that is so sad and concerning to me just that we're at this phase with the industry where this is I mean all of this is going to be a cautionary tale in retrospect. There's going to be you know entire fields of public health if academia survives as society survives unpacking this like the false glorification of SSRIs before.

[1:17:46] But imagine if you had like that Silicon Valley investor bro class back in the 60s in the late 50s early 60s what they would have done. Well Steve Jobs you know it wasn't he no but what I'm saying that first wave if you had the c the amount of capital political like imagine what psychedelics would have turned into back then like you got wildly irresponsible trials all over the place. I think a lot of the trials now have like a very close resemblance to those trials back in the 60s. One of the main difference differences now is you don't have you don't nick in there first off, but you get a ton of money and you get a ton of like, you know, regulatory power that you can you have wind at your sales in that regard, you know, so you could just push through things.

[1:18:36] And I think that's what's going on in so many with so many of these classes of drugs now. They already greased the public into acceptance. Go talk to random people on the streets, especially younger people. They're going to tell you something about micro doing. They're gonna they're going to know they know something. There's generally a base level understanding of psychedelics in some way. At this point, I think it'd be I think it'd be pretty hard to find someone who's very ignorant about and they're going to tell you something about mental health or, you know, and it's like the public's understanding is so far ahead of what the science actually even says. And I think to your point that you made earlier in the controlling of the narrative, that's like a controlling of the narrative where you don't even need the drug to have worked or you don't even have to have good data for the public at large to just like think it right.

[1:19:32] That's what this was the point of advertising. The point propaganda, right? This is propaganda. I was always confused when I was younger, not even that younger, about like what the [expletive] the point of a commercial because you don't like especially a commercial on a TV, right? You don't watch it and be like, "Holy [expletive] I need that product right now, right? That's not what the point of it is. The point of it is is to remind you that it exists and to put the image and to put the branding and whatever the little story in your mind so the next time you're at the store randomly, you think about it, you see, oh, I want a Coke, blah blah blah." Right? It's a little bit familiarity. Yeah. I mean, there's a psychological word for this that escapes me, but yeah, it's all very calculated. Yeah. And so that's kind of what I can see the point that you were making earlier on like that's a controlling the narrative because you probably get a ton of, you know, DSA people walking around right now who hate Peter Teal's guts and don't know the thoughts that they have in their head about psychedelics in their head because of

[1:20:35] Little things like this. Right. Exactly. Totally. like this that they never even and I don't blame them, you know, because I'm sure we got a lot of [expletive] in heads that was planted there by someone with dollars and an agenda, right? But yeah, I that seems like the effective way to me to control the narrative that you might have a chance of healing like you know, you're not like there's something out there for you at some point. I don't know. Well, this is going to also drive people into the underground where people you know there's so many abusive practitioners and you know I even saw Martin Ball I shared with the chat is is has announced new so Martin Ball's context we had you know chatted about in the past had some videos about for advocating and specifically teaching people that using intuition to touch people's genitals and stick your tongue

[1:21:36] Down the throats of unresponsive older people patients is acceptable and even best practice of psychedelic facilitation. So he which a lot of people when we pointed these things out as very dangerous ideas not to just be even saying about what you do but to recommend that other people do people would come to us and say oh you're just bullying this small bean he's like retired and like you're just beating up on him and it's like no he is still training people and he's using the tai referencing the you know purchase by Eli Liy as a reason why we need to have more people trained to do 5 MO integration, right? So, it's like the that's the other aspect of why this is so concerning because it's going to be funneling desperate people into the underground where there are so many bad actors.

[1:22:30] And that's I think within all I think within all of Psychedelia, the five MEO crew has been the [expletive] weirdest cultiest of all of them to be honest. They've always been the most sus to me. Yeah, that's where people are shocking people with like tasers and waterboarding them when they're on 5me. I mean like really far out disturbing stuff for sure. Yeah. And for people who are watching or listening to this, like look up what we did on Martin Ball. This was a practitioner who was generally he's a [expletive] weird guy, but he was generally accepted by the industry so far that MAPS Canada was like co-publishing books with him and he had videos openly giving public lectures about vomiting on people's faces and then saying how they appreciated it.

[1:23:20] And we saw this and we were like, "What the fuck?" I remember watching it. Someone I think Brian Pace had sent me the videos. I was like, "Is this real?" Like, "What the [expletive] How is no one said anything about this?" And of course, we talk about it. We publish some stuff on it. And we get [expletive] hammered by people. We're being, you know, you guys are being so critical. Martin's a good guy. Blah blah blah. And it's like, I don't give a [expletive] if who he is. Like, what is he doing? Why aren't you talking about this? Like if you give a [expletive] about the industry or the space or anything like that, how about you call out [expletive] like this when they're putting when they're doing dangerous practices? It's crazy. And when they're represented as the experts that others are looking to for models for what they should do.

[1:24:08] So before we transition into our final segment, I'll just mention that, you know, a lot the reason we are doing a lot of this work and trying to get this information out to the public is because we can see that the media narratives are by and large going to they're misrepresenting what's happening in the psychedelic field and people are not aware of the risk. So, we do this work to try to get more nuanced information out there so people can make more informed decisions about what they're seeking out and who they're seeking out those things with. So, if you would like to, we are not funded by big pharma. If you would like to support our work, we have a Patreon. Yeah. So, if you support the show, go to our Patreon. We have a few things on there. We have some behind the scenes chats. We do some stuff, some live stream type stuff on there.

[1:24:54] If you become an annual subscriber, we have Psymposia bladder art. There's not that many of them left. We get some buttons and stickers. Yeah, we got some stuff on there. We got some merch on there. You get some merch on there. And speaking of shady underground practitioners, we can go into our final segment for today. All right, so we're going to check out Dr. Samuel Lee of Miami. This is from CBS News just a handful of days ago, week ago or so. doctor charged with manslaughter over over a year after woman died during psychedelic retreat in Miami Beach. So this guy Samuel Lee have my notes ready? Yeah. So this guy Samuel Lee is a Miami Beach I think he's a boardcertified psychiatrist.

[1:25:41] He was arrested and charged with seconddegree felony manslaughter in connection with a woman's death after psychedelic retreat. Tina Sod. She died on February 10th of 2025. It was part of a three-day three-day heart protocol retreat, some wellness thing that Lee was doing on Flamingo Way. In the court documents, it says that the retreat involved MDMA and ketamine, and participants were told it was meant to help them connect with their higher selves. She paid $2,000 and signed a waiver. Just a reminder to people that waivers don't matter. She was found unresponsive inside of a rooftop sauna and the medical examiner ruled that the cause of death was dehydration with contributing factors including MDMA, ketamine, prolonged heat exposure and a cleansing regimen before the ceremony.

[1:26:32] What was that cleansing regimen? I wonder how significant that affect like did did she just not eat for a handful of days or low electrolytes or like I wonder why there was a Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised. NBC's Sick South Florida had said that Lee also mentioned the use of over-the-counter GABA supplements to relax the brain and three doses of heart medicine to increase serotonin and dopamine production and open the heart and an intramuscular injection of ketamine once the heart medicine is peaking. The warrant said so we'll just give you we have a few clips of this guy just to give you a sense of who he is. This is why these same soul pods continue to reincarnate over and over and over because of their great love for humanity and their great love for source.

[1:27:20] So today we're going to trace it all the way back to Yeshua J12, not the biblical Jesus J12 and the Essen Magi mission from 12 BC to 27 AD. So the real Jeshua, not the religious biblical one, but the magi grail king. And remember what I said, magi grail kings have the DNA codes for specific celestial human tribe stargates. He was a planetary grid worker. So for a lot of you, this is going to be new information, but this comes directly from the CDT plates, which are pre-religious, pre-atlantean holographic disc, which contain the true history and record of mother. This guy has like 800 plus thousand followers on Instagram and some hundreds of thousands as well on YouTube.

[1:28:09] So that's the other thing and this is why he connects to what we were talking about in the last segment about Martin Ball is that this is not just like a lone figure out in the wilderness. This is someone who was specifically training other people to facilitate in the same way that he was. It was kind of like an MLM structure that he was advocating for. I think this is I think a lot of the psychedelic community is like this majority of it. Hate to say it. I think this is so common. This is when you say this are you talking about the extreme of what he's actually talking about or are you talking about it's gradient? It's gradients of it. Right. I think that like a lot of the [expletive] that he's saying is also present if you read the maps documents.

[1:28:55] Tons of nonsense in there. I don't see how what he's saying is much different than a lot of stuff that Stan Gra says because you know what you know where it originates some thought in the brain and just go with it like there's no backing for any of it you know I do think there it's important to delineate the gradient situation like this is so far I mean what he was saying was incomprehensible at least you can read the maps documents but like maybe that makes it more dangerous though that like it seems like it's more rational and more scientific than just I mean this should be obvious to anyone watching that just please don't trust this guy. I mean I don't have a child but if I had a child and watch this guy and you see what he just you see what he just said that's a bullshitter like just guard yourself from this moving forward.

[1:29:49] There's a lot of men in the world who are like narcissistic that are looking to take your money that are looking to have status and be some kind of cult leader and guard yourself against men like this cuz they're you're going to run into them all the time. So it's I yeah I think this is obvious which makes it like kind of comic book madness but it is not just an individual psychosis. Like a lot of the ideas that he was referring to are there's like a whole kind of like a religious worldview within like it's like a subculture of the new age, right? With like gray aliens and like you know combining all these Yeah, exactly. where it's like this isn't just him off the cuff. He's pulling on ideas that other people are strongly believing in.

[1:30:36] And then it is this also kind of like millinarian apocalyptic you know people are like believing that we are at this tipping point in the evolution of consciousness and there are like light workers seed workers who are helping to switch on individuals and then people have these intense psychedelic experiences that are you know in some cases primed by these new age ideas that they're exposed to and then they hear a charismatic confident sounding teacher are kind of helping them understand what they experience. So, it's definitely a lot of people are falling down this pipeline of becoming radicalized in this direction by psychedelics. And I think it's also being exacerbated at the moment by chat GBPT and these like AIs that are also if you look at some of the accounts of when people go really off the rails, they're similar to what this guy is saying of like you're activating your DNA. you're the one who was kind of positioned to be able to connect with the AI and enable

[1:31:37] This moment to be happening. So, it's very dangerous and a lot of people are falling into it. So, I'm going to play this other very real quick. Doctors, healers, health professionals, you do not need another certification. What you need is a signature program and the right system to help you scale it. And I think it says at the end to help you scale it specifically. So it's like we've been seeing this for years with the psychedelic coaches where it's like training the trainers or coaching the coaches like people want to and he even advertises making these like you know six seven figure incomes that you can have access to this by you know following his protocol and creating your own that's where the money is you know there the money is only in a couple places it's either doing retreats or doing or selling some course that's it unless you're a Christian anger prior.

[1:32:29] There are a lot of people who work in medicine who might be, you know, disenchanted by the flaws with mainstream medicine and then seeing psychedelics as like a pivot opportunity and then thinking like he's saying you don't have to follow the old rules or have like a real certification to be doing what you know doing this. It's just vibes and it's just it's something that you can make a lot of money off of. So, and maybe if we and maybe if we had Medicare for all and people actually had access to medicine, we like they wouldn't be vulnerable to just [expletive] like this. You know, this guy, look at this guy. Like, you wouldn't be vulnerable to this. You wouldn't be seeking out alternative medicine if like maybe you actually could afford your insulin or something that you know what I mean? like if you actually had access to mental health care, if that was part of your health insurance where you could go to a local community

[1:33:31] Center or something like that, like you wouldn't be seeking out cuz I think a lot of people who are attracted to stuff like this, it is being you're with the like-minded community. You're part of that tribe. You're in on it. You know I How does this exist? Well, and he has this whole like personable, relatable thing too going on where he's very vocal about he says in one post like I faced every mental health diagnosis and then I found faith. I'm like you. I'm like you. Yeah. I'm like you. I faced every single one and I faced all the ones that I treat. He's even said. Yeah. And even if you I mean look at these things. This is how you qualify. Even if you have no tech skills and no idea where to start. If you're [expletive] just lost, come to me.

[1:34:18] I'm the beacon here for you. I'm the shining light. I will help you in your journey. One of the other so at last week or so I found this interesting that at the state attorney's request the judge imposed additional conditions on his bond allowing him to remain out of jail but they prohibited him from providing any medical psychological or psychiatric care while the case is pending. He had to surrender his passports and he also had a medical license in is it Texas? He was licensed to practice in Texas and so the board there tempor temp temporarily suspended his license and yeah he pleaded not guilty. I think it should be clear just a little legal here that these are all allegations but then you know I was reading a little bit about this case and yeah so conditions of his bond is like look you got to stop doing some of this stuff and then I just went over to his YouTube and his Spotify and you know there was a video.

[1:35:18] So what do you recommend implementing first to avoid becoming a bottleneck in growth when it comes to this your program? You just said it. So, well, first of all, the program is is is literally created. I don't need to play the whole thing. The point I was just trying to make is that so we're recording on July 22nd. This video came out on July 21st on YouTube. It's titled the systems that scale a solo practitioner. And in all the descriptions of his videos, it specifically says it's aimed at doctors, healers, and health professionals. So, it doesn't appear that he's stopping. I don't technically know if this would violate those conditions of his bond since it does say providing medical, psychological, psychiatric care.

[1:36:05] This isn't care. I don't think Yeah, I don't think that that's what he's talking about here. I think he's talking about his program. Could you actually play this one because it's I think it connects to the final the clip that I shared. Sure. You want me to continue it or play it over? You can just continue it. One step at a time. Literally, when you submit the next thing will pop up. So what I keep trying to tell people is just the mind wants to go to like step seven but it's like no what's the next thing in front of me right now do that one thing and the pieces will connect later right so it's just take the next required step is it and you're going to think you think there's a bottleneck here like five weeks from now but literally just take that next required step next click okay cool what's what do I do now oh just watch this video now okay cool right And as long as you do that, by the end of 8 weeks, you will have a course and you will have launched it.

[1:37:00] So, I mean, it's concerning to me because he's essentially training people to ignore their critical faculties. You know, he's like, don't question, just trust, just go to the next module, watch the next video, don't ask if it's possible to scale all of these different isolated, you know, sellers into each having seven figure incomes. It's like there's that aspect of the bottleneck, the MLM inevitability of like eventually everyone in the planet, you know, can't have that much money from their, you know, downlines. And so, you know, that to me it fits with his other ideas that we've been seeing where it's like people are encouraged to go based on vibes and not question. And that is how people end up in bad situations with a lot of these actors.

[1:37:46] So, speaking of vibes, vibes based healing, you want to play the last clip? Yeah. What's up, beautiful souls? This week, I kind of wanted to talk about how love and truth are the same thing. There's no frequency more powerful than when you synergize. Love and truth. And the truth will set you free. And the truth has a unique frequency. Your body knows when it's listening to truth. For example, when you hold your fingers like this, right? and you say, "My name is Samuel," your body's stronger. So when you pull on it, you're speaking the truth. But when you say something false, "My name is Daniel." Right? It's the truth has a stronger frequency than what is not true.

[1:38:34] And your body and your muscles respond and know. And what I would like to propose is something wild. There's never been a time where it's in my opinion to be it's more important for you to understand and discern for yourself what is true for you. So there's a few things to say about that clip. I mean first of all this gets back to what I was saying before about how there's like an overlap between the pickup artistry community and like techniques of persuasion and even like magic tricks like close-up magic sorts of not even good magic tricks though. [laughter] They're like really bad. But the thing is it's like they're they are persuasive, but it's like if you do that with someone while you're telling them you can learn to feel what is really true for you and you're doing all of these techniques to get them to trust you, then you can kind of confuse for them that feeling of trust that you've cultivated with what they really want and what's in their best interest. and you're kind of creating this system of ideas that is allowing certain kinds of

[1:39:35] People to just shut down their critical thought and just blindly follow with what you want them to be doing. And even though and this is part of the problem with like a lot of aspects of concerns with the psychedelic space is like a lot of people would say well I would never fall for that but guess what a lot of people would fall for that and women especially who have had you know trauma in their past who are looking for a spiritual community who are looking for a positive you know male leadership figure. you can really get those people to change their lives in a way that is not in their best interest through the types of stories that this guy is saying. And when you add psychedelic suggestability enhancing substances into the mix, you are then adding fuel to that process of like getting people to just trust what you want them to do.

[1:40:26] And so, you know, part of why, you know, we at Saposia do this work is just to put some information out there so that people can, you know, decide for themselves if these type types of narratives are things that they want to be trusting. And also to start to notice the recurring red flags and warning signs because the fact of the matter is there are many people who were paying thousands of dollars to take retreats with this particular individual. So even if to us this is like shady guy, a lot of people don't see the red flags. And so it's important to be able to talk about what these patterns are. It's predatory. It's predatory and it's like I mean it's hard for us to it's hard for me to say necessarily, but like he's actively looking for those people that don't have any, you know, like you were saying the beacon.

[1:41:18] They don't have a baseline. They don't have a support system. He's going after these people, but that doesn't mean those are the only people that are going to get sucked into this. People are looking for recognition. They're looking for community. They're looking for success. And he's like marketing to all these people through different channels, right? And he sounds I mean to us like obviously I can lie and hold my finger in my hand, right? Like the things he's saying to are just like they're strange. I mean how can if love and truth are the same thing, how can they synergize to make something different? You know, the truth set you free. It's like the oldest plat platitude in the language I think like but it is it's effective like it's a platitude for a reason. They say this stuff and I think people catch on and they feel connected to and he has that sort of charisma and that way and then people die because of it.

[1:42:08] And not only do they die, they get abused. We see these I mean there there's these folks like the you were saying too with in the last clip like don't worry about it trust the system trust the medicine you know just trust the next step like it's the oldest trick in the book for like neosamanism to just like say trust me surrender you know and then what do they do when they surrender like whatever the hell they want if you can if you're him and you know he probably thinks he's like some shaman guy he's like some trickster he probably buys a lot of his own [expletive] but he probably knows he's bullshitting too, I think. But if you can get an audience to get past the finger thing, you know, you got them. I think you have captured them at that point. If someone actually doesn't even have the critical like the capacity for critical thought at that point, something so easily disprovable that you're willing to like suspend your critical faculties for that.

[1:43:05] It kind of reminds me of like Trump. You say the most absurd [expletive] that the election was stolen from me and then everything else that comes out of there, you know, after that, like you've locked on those people. It's the ratchet effect. It's ratchet and so like Yeah. where you just keep turning the wheel and so it gets harder and harder to like easier and easier for you to say more [expletive] that's a little less extreme and you can see I mean it's gates, you know, like you were saying if people get past the finger thing then you're caught. If people can get past he's got levels of this, right? If people can get past that introductory thing of, oh, I'm cured now from every single mental illness. Okay, sounds maybe believable. But then you get into all this like esoteric bizarre.

[1:43:51] I don't know what he was talking about. I couldn't even say one of the words, but like that's a pretty late gate in the sense, you know, if you get those people, then they're the ones that are paying several hundred for your course. Yeah. you only need to convert a very small percentage of people like down the funnel to get to the highriced courses. But it's a trick too because it's a slippery slope. Once you get past that one gate, maybe you start believing a little bit more. And I think that's where the fear the challenges for people that aren't just like already marginalized or have are hopeless or whatever. Like some people just don't know and can be sucked into this kind of world. And it's intriguing. It's so sad that it like we have to wait until this guy allegedly causes someone's death for like anything to be done about it.

[1:44:41] And a year and a half after Yeah. And it as a you know final point about it that it's been really interesting to see the social media conversation around this case because you know the field as a whole is very movement protective of like not wanting to talk in general about the downsides because they feel like oh it's so important that this gets approved and we don't want to like bring bad reputation to it stigmatized whatever but in this case there have been a lot of people talking about like more than some of the other cases I think in part because he was such a visible influencer in this space. But some of the conversations in the comments have been, you know, people who are teaching the same types of ideas and wanting to distance themselves from this one bad apple case and saying, well, he was teaching similar ideas, but he wasn't in alignment.

[1:45:34] He wasn't in integrity. and they kind of create this justification for why this is why they don't need to interrogate their own practices, their own assumptions, their own coaching platforms and that sort of thing. And so it's just you see that a lot as well. Another aspect of it is people saying that you know the fact that you are posting angrily about this and saying this shouldn't have been allowed you know people shouldn't be so reckless that shows that you are spiritually unevolved because you're in victim mindset you're blaming and so then I can discount you as a credible voice. We see that all the time in the psychedelic field where it's like the by virtue of being expressing any kind of concern or anger.

[1:46:20] You allow yourself to be discredited in the minds of people who think in those vibes based ways. It's so alien. He would agree that the grays are sucking on your DNA for actually kind of hard to follow some of the [expletive] that he was saying in this. This is why these same soul pods continue to reincarnate over and over and over because of their great love for humanity and their great love for source. So today we're going to trace it all the way back to Yeshua J12. Not the biblical Jesus J12 and the Essen Magi mission. I feel like I'm reading a chemistry but I [laughter] can't understand anything. You didn't get all the you didn't get all the pre-work done. See I think this is a later I actually did watch this.

[1:47:05] He's talking about the apostles and Jesus or something and it's hard to follow because it's so disjointed and it's like a condensation of every thing out there. The so the real Joshua not the religious biblical one but the magi grail king and remember what I said magi grail kings have the DNA codes for specific celestial human tribe stargates. He was a planetary grid worker. So, okay, I don't want to torture you guys. There's some aspects of that that almost remind me of Professor Professor Jen talking about like history and politics. It's not quite that far out with him, but there are some pretty far out stuff and it's appealing. You know, people are speaking confidently about these ideas.

[1:47:52] There are people that like see that confidence and then believe it must be backed up by something. But anyway, I think that got most of the ideas across. will probably return to this as the case plays out just because it is such a public reckoning with the consequences of playing fast and loose in like the underground kind of retreat settings that not everyone who is in operating that space is a good actor. If you're interested in this, go read the wrongful death lawsuit that was filed against Dr. Bronner. It's interesting. Yep. certainly a lot of patterns in the stories that are coming out about these dynamics. And with that, I just want to end with saying that there's going to be a we have a series coming out soon on psychedelic conversion therapy that we've been working very hard on over the summer that will be out in the next few weeks.

[1:48:44] So, tune back in for that. And thanks so much for joining us on this conversation. Yeah, thanks guys. This was fun. Yeah, thanks everyone.