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# The "Republican Psychedelic Whisperer" Ushering in a Christian Nationalist Revival
- URL: https://ghost.psymposia.com/the-republican-psychedelic-whisperer-ushering-in-a-christian-nationalist-revival/
- Published: 2026-06-11T04:00:15.000Z
- Updated: 2026-09-29T01:01:48.000Z
- Author: Mike Elliott
- Tags: Videos, #youtube, #youtube-transcript

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## Transcript

*This transcript was generated automatically from YouTube's captions, then cleaned up by removing filler words, repeated words and background sounds. It may still contain errors.*

[\[00:00\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2TLB4OIKEY&t=0s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) That this is not really about public health. This is Ibegan is essentially a vehicle for a revival of Christian nationalism in the United States as you know some of the people at the forefront of the national aane project are envisioning it. This is something that I think the public does not by and large fully understand. No, not at all. This country is in deep trouble. We are spiritually destitute. A country that was founded as the new Jerusalem is slouching toward Babylon. And if we don't do something now to fundamentally reestablish this nation's spiritual foundation as a place where everyone is endowed by their acknowledged creator with life, liberty, and the right to pursue happiness.

[\[00:53\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2TLB4OIKEY&t=53s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) And we don't do it now. We may very well lose the opportunity for generations to come. And what we have now by way of opportunity is too precious to let go. And that's what this Wow. God, that's beautiful, man. Congratulations. Wow. All right. So, let's talk about Brian Huard. Shayla Love in the Atlantic just came out, recently came out the last week or so. A story. The man behind the Trump administration's favorite psychedelic, Brian Huard is the there's a W in front of him. So W Brian Huard is the Republican psychedelics whisperer. And where to begin?

[\[01:38\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2TLB4OIKEY&t=98s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) I don't even know where to start with this. So Hubard is this guy who's come on the scene in the last handful of years. He's a right-wing psychedelic operative. He's one of the people that's mostly responsible for the Trump administration's executive order. The story basically goes that Hubard was on Rogan. Rogan asked Hubard asked Rogan for a favor to text the president about Ibel Gain. Last year Hubard formed Americans for Ibo gain with Rick Perry who was the first Trump administration's energy secretary. He's the former governor of Texas. and Hubard came the first time that I think most of us heard about Brian Hubard and we reported some of this in the psychedelic syndicate but basically he was the Kentucky opioid abatement advisory commission the chair for that that commission was tasked with allocating the way that they did it is when the pharmaceut when the opioid pharmaceutical companies settled with

[\[02:39\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2TLB4OIKEY&t=159s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) With the states and the government that money was basically allocated to different states and so they had like these huge cash piles to distribute to various organizations for harm reduction work and whatnot. And so in May of 2023, that commission proposed $42 million of that settlement money to go to Ibugain Research. And like I said, you can read some of this in the psychedelic syndicate, PSFC's lobbying, some of the veteran groups in Kentucky. We covered one of Genevie Jervson. She's on the PSFC board kind of celebrating the announcement thanking Reason for Hope, which is one of the other veteran advocacy groups that the Silicon Valley Network funds.

[\[03:28\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2TLB4OIKEY&t=208s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) And yeah, that opioid settlement money was mostly meant for various harm reduction initiatives in the state. And the way that that basically it ended up all falling apart in Kentucky in the way the Daily Beast had covered this a few years ago, but at the time the Kentucky Attorney General David Cameron, he was running for governor. And he suddenly received $3 million from the Republican like mega donor, billionaire Jeff Yas. And once that money came into Cameron's pack, it was one of Cameron's packs. Hubard was appointed to the Baitment Commission board and Ibugain is pushed and Jeff Yas was he had several companies that were doing Iberane research and they would they were going to benefit from this and that kind of just totally fell apart because Cameron wasn't elected and the other guy I think was a former DEA guy and that just sort

[\[04:29\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2TLB4OIKEY&t=269s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) Of fell apart and so Hubard's still been around and yeah so Shayla does this profile on him. I think we should start actually with some of the code switching that he's doing in the piece. Do you want to share screenshot three? So, one thing that stood out to me in this piece is so it's a profile on Hubard, but he says a kind of few interesting things in here and he starts talking about like how his ancestors fought for the Union against the Confederacy. And one of the other things he's starting to talk about is he's concerned with like the politization that's happening and the risk of like some of the work that he's doing with Ibugain being seen as a right-wing project. So Shayla writes that Hubard told me that his own politics are informed by his ancestors who were coal miners from the mountains of Virginia in western North Carolina and East Kentucky.

[\[05:23\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2TLB4OIKEY&t=323s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) One of his greatest influences, he said, is the United Mine Workers of America, a union that organized around improving working conditions and increasing wages. He said his great greatgrandfather, along with four of his brothers, cross the Ohio River to fight against the South during the Civil War. Psychedelics by his reckoning are crucial for quote everybody who wants to have a shot at living with any measure of freedom or dignity. End quote. And she writes that listening to Harvard muse about universal human rights and freedom, it's easy to understand why he's frequently compared to a preacher. His remarks about the medical benefits of Ibo quickly morph into pronouncements of the sacredness of humankind. And he said, I see the science as a gateway to spirituality.

[\[06:10\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2TLB4OIKEY&t=370s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) And what was interesting to me in this is you just have the executive order increasingly and it's a beat we Ross has covered for years now increasingly and Nishay and our other colleague Brian Pace wrote right-wing psychedelia. It was very apparent that the whole play of the psychedelics industry this entire time under the guise of building bipartisan support was engaging the right. And now they've engaged the right and Hubard is sort of the face of the right and now it's being seen as sort of a risk to their movement. And Hubard I don't know if we have the other screenshot in here but Hubard is talking about how it's becoming a liability that he's not he's sensing it's not he's not able to appeal to some of the institutions that are going to be required for IO gain to be accepted and for research to be conducted and whatnot.

[\[07:05\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2TLB4OIKEY&t=425s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) And so he's seeing that as a risk. And so in my opinion, he's doing this Atlantic article and trying to reframe what the public perception of him is. And so we wanted to share a few different videos of him of what his actual views on on the left are and some of his more concerning religious views. I'm going to pass this over to Nishay here. Could you say more about like the sense in which you mean code switching because you mentioned that term, but could you like spellill that out a little bit? He's a right-wing guy who is speaking to the Atlantic and kind of presenting him himself as having these traditional left-wing values in being pro-UN, but yet he has spoken publicly like in pretty harsh terms against like the left.

[\[07:56\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2TLB4OIKEY&t=476s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) Yeah. And could you pull up that quote one more time from the Atlantic? Because I wasn't sure if this was exactly the same as what you meant when you said code switching, but that line about everyone who wants to have a shot at living with any measure of freedom or dignity. Like to me that's actually, you know, could be seen as euphemistic where there's like the full idea from his perspective is not expressed, but it's stated in a way that everyone can get behind. you know, like, you know, who would be opposed to freedom or dignity in a general sense? But if you listen to his more extended worldview that he provides on other like podcasts and that sort of thing, it's pretty clear that his view of what is required for achieving any measure of freedom or dignity is within a kind of Christian nationalist sort of a frame. it is via you know the kind of like a Christian creator God that those values are accessible.

[\[08:52\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2TLB4OIKEY&t=532s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) So that that seems really important to emphasize from my perspective because there are a lot of examples of this in the psychedelic industry where people are kind of beyond their inroup presenting what it is that they do and say and believe in a way that is very easy to get behind. that they're kind of withholding some of the information in a way that kind of like makes it more palatable and keeps the gears turning. Yeah. Which I do have the clip that you suggested that kind of speaks to that where he's sort of talking what he think talking about what he thinks people can get out of psychedelics. I can play that real quick. It's real it's a pretty quick one just to give an idea of what we're talking about when we say he's endorsing these Christian values through psychedelic lens.

[\[09:38\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2TLB4OIKEY&t=578s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) The very first thing that your audience can do I think is take what they have heard here spread it to their friends. All change in America begins at the kitchen table. Talk to your family, talk to your friends. use that social media and electronic gadgets that you carry around to spread the good word that God is real, God is love, and God has planted within this very earth a number of things that can help us connect to the ultimate reality which is our own eternal significance as individuals. You Cino have a unique and special purpose to achieve with your life as does every member of your audience. As does every person who carries God's breath in their body.

[\[10:26\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2TLB4OIKEY&t=626s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) Don't get sucked in that that like cut to the host like sitting in a chair with the laptop on his lap is so like jarring to me. Such a weird position to be in. Yeah, that clip kind of gets at that is not really about public health. This is Ibegan is essentially a vehicle for a revival of Christian nationalism in the United States as you know some of the people at the forefront of the national aane project are envisioning it. This is something that I think the public does not by and large fully understand. No, not at all. And the thing is like with psychedelic research across the board and the various substances, Ibo kind of had an open lane to an extent.

[\[11:13\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2TLB4OIKEY&t=673s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) It had an open lane that was kind of like a blank slate. People were doing, you know, there's not too much going on with LSD, but psilocybin super crowded, MDMA super crowded. I gain there wasn't a primary advocacy or research concentration in that space which has allowed them to occupy that lane and now they've sort of taken the narrative and that narrative has now spread to you know more conservative Republican states with the executive order. They're trying to launch these statebacked initiatives. So there's a portion that would come from the state and then the Fed would match that with research dollars. So they can now fund their project kind of through taxpayer money as opposed to relying on the traditional philanthropic route which is got a lot of the research funded at this point.

[\[12:05\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2TLB4OIKEY&t=725s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) Something interesting that comes up in that Atlantic article that I think goes a little understated, but he's become the champion of Ibagane. And in this Atlantic article, he does disclose that he on his psychedelic journey has done over 12 psilocybin trips that he marks as very significant but doesn't bring up politically because of the attachment that LSD and psilocybin has to kind of the leftist or the hippies or whatever. I thought that was just an interesting little detail that came out in this article as well. Yeah. He says he become he became a believer in and he uses that word a believer in psychedelic medicine like as a result of those psilocybin experiences. That was in the podcast not the Atlantic article. I feel like a lot of times the people that are pushing I gain like to like include a line about how it's not fun and it's like a terrible experience.

[\[13:01\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2TLB4OIKEY&t=781s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) And it feels like that's part of what makes them on board with it sometimes. Like the fact that you have a little punishment for taking it, but it could also help. And I don't know, that just feels weird to me. Yep. Yeah. And regarding his ideological viewpoints on what Ibeain can do for the general American public, he speaks to that in one of the podcast episodes we clipped. If you want to play the clip about Tubard saying that America is in peril, I think that'll speak to some of what we've been discussing. This country is in deep, deep, deep trouble for all of our material wealth and technological advancement, and it has no peer in this world. We are spiritually destitute. A country that was founded as the New Jerusalem is slouching toward Babylon.

[\[13:51\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2TLB4OIKEY&t=831s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) And if we don't do something now to fundamentally reestablish this nation's spiritual foundation as a place where everyone is endowed by their acknowledged creator with life, liberty, and the right to pursue happiness. And we don't do it now, we may very well lose the opportunity for generations to come. And what we have now by way of opportunity is too precious to let go. And that's what this Wow. God, that's beautiful, man. Congratulations. Wow. Wow. I can't help. The whole time I was watching that, I am just thinking that this is like an NPC side quest if I'm playing Red Dead Redemption directing me to get a rule. Absolutely. Yeah. Established religion in America.

[\[14:38\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2TLB4OIKEY&t=878s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) Yeah. Yeah, I mean it really it connects also because there's a lot of discourse right now on like the Christian right about like you know we're in the midst of a spirit spiritual warfare where there's you know kind of battles against demons and the side of this of the population that's like on the side of God needs to like organize spiritually in order to withstand these opposing forces and this is kind of in that context in that millu of like you know there's a broader there's broader stakes of what's going on spiritually and This is a means of winning that battle. Yeah. And as a former theology student, this is some Americanized ass Christianity where he even threw in life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness like it's in the Bible.

[\[15:24\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2TLB4OIKEY&t=924s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) And like it is just like it is like a wild like merger of the two. Like why do I feel like the Bundy family would be really into what he's saying there? you \[laughter\] know, like the constitutionalists who like took over the nature preserve or whatever. Like there I feel like their brand of American constitutionalist Christianity like fits perfectly into some of these talking points. I mean, this would all be what it'd be to me this would be like kind of in the whatever category of just like another psychedelic like a strange psychedelic offshoot little faction that existed out there. So much of what he's saying, I think, is really already present in the new age kind of psychedelic movement, which I think is the majority of it at this point.

[\[16:13\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2TLB4OIKEY&t=973s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) The concern here is this guy's got serious connections. He's his like siphon is right into the White House. Like the executive order would have not passed probably without his influence on all that. So that's the big concern to me. That's what's been so interesting in the kind of modern psychedelic landscape is it felt like there was sort of an established group of people that got platformed for a really long time that you'd see Dolin, Robin Carheart, Harris, I don't know, like these very established researchers, scientists, figures, kind of people who were popular in the space and just within like the last five years or so, it feels like all of these other figures have taken a spotlight kind of out of nowhere. Maybe because of their ideals aligned with the funders in the space.

[\[17:00\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2TLB4OIKEY&t=1020s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) Maybe because their ideals aligned with the political strategies that they're shooting for to appeal to certain populations or whatever. But people like Brian Huard weren't on my radar at all just years ago. And now I feel like I can't read any psychedelic article without people saying Brian Huard's the reason the rights embracing psychedelia and all of this stuff. But it's like it's kind of overtaken in a way the historical emphasis on like perennialism or perennial philosophy within religion. So there had been an attempt in you know some of the prehubard researchers funders to really advance psychedelics as a way of infusing belief and enthusiasm towards this like unitive model of all religions are actually connected.

[\[17:47\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2TLB4OIKEY&t=1067s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) But it's like that's being lapped by this Christian nationalist approach where it's like they're no longer trying to say like, "Oh, we're all in this together." It's about this, you know, vision of what's it called when it's like kind of like a balkcanized world where it's like the US is this Christian stronghold in this new kind of like fascist terrain that we're in. And so it kind of makes sense that the leading religious voice in that picture is more in that lane. Yeah. The new Jerusalem as he calls it. It's heading towards Babylon, though. Yeah, heading towards \[laughter\] Babylon. We do have two other clips that relate to Hubard engaging with political theory and the left and right side of the political spectrum in the United States. That might make sense to jump into here.

[\[18:32\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2TLB4OIKEY&t=1112s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) This was an interview he did with William Leonard Peard, who is posing questions that his viewers or people submitted to him to read to Brian Hubard during the interview. and they get into his views on how the right might use psychedelics that we'll watch first and we can discuss and then the second clip on how he sees how the left might use psychedelics from the same dear friend anarchist in the Hopkins area. I'll have to quote this because it's kind of difficult to say or paraphrase. So I'll just quote it. I'm curious about his thoughts on some of the big war machine money in the psychedelic space like Peter Teal. No offense, Peter. And whether mixing psychedelic medicine with an increasingly far-right government, especially in Texas, poses any risk.

[\[19:24\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2TLB4OIKEY&t=1164s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) Can you wrap your mind around that question? Well, I can and I think that when we look at either end of the political spectrum, there are attendant dangers that exist on each end of those spectrums. You know, I hear the concern about the far rightwing war machine. I think that's legitimate. In fact, just last night, Joe Allison and I were talking about the fact that again speaking to vigilance, you know, when it comes to Iberane, I can absolutely see the ambitious ulterior mind recognizing the opportunity to enhance the performance of the war machine by removing the spiritual essence of Ivagane in favor of its materialist restoration of the mind and body in order to essentially be able to repair the war fighter to send them right back out in a condition of restoration to continue at a higher level the killing

[\[20:26\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2TLB4OIKEY&t=1226s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) That their war trauma prevented them from doing before they were restored. I think just like anything that can be wielded by the human hand, it can be done for good or it can be done for bad. And I think that on the right, the way in which I gain could be perverted to help and not just restore but enhance the war machine is something that we've got to be vigilant about recognizing and confronting if that becomes an emergent reality. So fairly reasonable I think overall. Great question. \[laughter\] The question was well worded and yeah, Leonard had reached out and he was looking I think for you know not to just have some softball questions but to have some you know dynamic spicier questions \[laughter\] and so he reached out to me for that one.

[\[21:18\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2TLB4OIKEY&t=1278s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) What you're his source from John's Hopkins area really \[laughter\] the spice maester we want to go with what he said about the left now. Yeah, I think before we jump into it, the I just want to say I think his answer there is fairly reasonable. Notably, he does not say what he's doing to curb these efforts as he's working alongside the right wing, I think. But yeah, and what was the date on that? Because it's like back then people were more like more openly anti-war on the right and now that the war in Iran and everything has happened there. The same people who back then when he was speaking were very anti-war are now kind of making excuses for why the status quo is acceptable. So there, you know, it could be partially reflecting that that that's how a lot of people were talking back then.

[\[22:08\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2TLB4OIKEY&t=1328s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) It's not necessarily a sign that he is like explicitly opposed to defense department engagement with these substances. That was July 28th of last year, it looks like. Yeah. So then he goes on to discuss how the left might use it, which in my opinion is a bit less reasonable. Well, we'll see about that. on the left side. You know, if the right wing has a grand war machine, in my opinion, the political left has a beautiful subjugation machine that they like to deploy to create as many helpless and powerless people as they can that rely upon the large s of the government that they control for everything related to their basic needs. I think that psychedelics and the malleability that they produce within the human psyche to open up opportunities for those who have a messiah complex or a savior complex.

[\[23:04\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2TLB4OIKEY&t=1384s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) I think that's a danger. And I think that the way that the left demagogs its leaders for the purposes of creating as much social capture as possible is a danger that has to be looked at there. Thank you, Brian. the left demagods their leaders just to make this is how like fascists talk about the left this is not how the left sees itself which I think is pretty telling you know it's like it's actually the left that is this like fascistic force that's trying to keep the masses subjugated I mean that's not like what the actual left is doing is trying to organize to have more more agency in the hands of workers right I mean that's like ultimately what we're talking about No one on the actual left would describe the left that way.

[\[23:52\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2TLB4OIKEY&t=1432s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) Has a beautiful sub subjugation machine. You sure about that? Subjugation through social safety nets is basically what he's describing. Like I think we talked about code switching earlier and this is him sort of demonstrating that he knows what the right wants to hear about the left and he knows what the left wants to hear about the right and he can speak to both. 100%. Yeah. 100%. No. And you know, I'm happy that we took a minute to respond to the right-wing video before watching the leftwing because that was the whole response was like that was a pretty good answer. That was and the other just dumb like he's talking about the government large ass. It is a fact that Republican administrations consistently blow the budget out. It's something like 25% of the national debt right now has been created by Trump within the last five and a half years.

[\[24:38\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2TLB4OIKEY&t=1478s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) Five and a half years of his administration. it that talking point it just works every \[expletive\] election every time. It is a consistent talking point on the right that is the left that is spending way too much money when in fact the reality it is the right that is spending way too much money. It's just this right-wing delusion that talking point which I just felt the need to call out. But actually it plays into because I hadn't heard that clip in a while and I just listened to the other podcast that we played a clip from and he talks in that about his kind of beef with conventional public health approaches to things and he kind of describes, you know, the use of things like Suboxone as keeping people separated from their soul and on this like barely subsistence like treadmill of just, you know, having government handouts and not amounting to fulfill the role that God has kind of, you know, ordained for each person.

[\[25:37\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2TLB4OIKEY&t=1537s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) So, these ideas kind of slot in together, I think. Yeah. I wonder if he thinks that it's a good thing to kick off several million ch children for SNAP food benefits. Is that government large? Is that Are you making a subjugated child for feeding them? It's just \[expletive\] pisses me off. You're giving them the opportunity to learn to fend for themselves. How could you? Do we want to watch the Suboxone clip? Yes. May have heard of as clinics that prescribe Suboxone, methadone, sublicate, and other derivatives which are essentially opioids with which to treat opioid dependency. Now, I want to make very clear recovery is an individual path unique to the dependent individual and opioid maintenance therapy has saved thousands of lives.

[\[26:26\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2TLB4OIKEY&t=1586s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) But the track record demonstrates that it delivers unacceptably mediocre results at scale. Suboxone treatment r loses roughly 50% of its patients at intake at the end of 6 months. And for those patients that remain, only 18% are compliant with the treatment regimen at the end of that same six-month period. Suboxone does marginally better with increased patient retention but about a 24% compliance rate at the end of 24 months and we call compliance as refraining from the consumption of any other illicit substances while taking either the suboxone or the methadone. What I found was that there were a number of clinics under active investigation, some of them jointly with the FBI for operating as glorified drug dealing operations where you have a physician with a medical license and his nursing staff with a prescription pad that is pre-signed and the only thing that they do is run a cattle call every single day where

[\[27:26\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2TLB4OIKEY&t=1646s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) Patients on a monthly basis are given the maximum milligram dosage for the maximum period of time and sent out the door without any counseling. without any effort to titrate them down from that medication which was the original design. And it is just this revolving door clinic that maximized the distribution of Suboxone throughout the community as much as possible every single day which explained a lot of the complaints that I was receiving from community leaders and elected officials of hey this stuff's supposed to be helping but it's all over the world. It's all over the place and people who are not even addicted are using it and we've got a huge problem with Suboxone diversion. What from what I have heard from people who are like do research in harm reduction is that like the evidence base for Suboxone like keeping people alive and able to lead functioning lives is very good. like there's a lot of evidence to support it.

[\[28:24\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2TLB4OIKEY&t=1704s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) And that's why there are across the country a lot of initiatives to have like low barrier access to prescriptions for it that you can get, you know, a month's supply at a time. You don't have to revolve your life around going to methadone clinics, which is an alternative option. I don't hear harm reductionist speaking about Suboxone in the way that he was presenting it here. This is kind of like, you know, it's it was another example, honestly, of him speaking to both sides because he had that very good disclaimer at the front where he's like, to be clear, there's not like a one-sizefits-all solution for everyone. A lot of people do benefit, but then the bulk of the conversation is presenting it kind of like the way he presents the left where it's this like sinister kind of keeping people in this treadmill but not able to like fully live. The thing that's crazy is going after Suboxone in general.

[\[29:11\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2TLB4OIKEY&t=1751s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) Like cuz Suboxone is literally bupinorphine paired with nlloxxone. So it's like part of Suboxone is that you cannot get high on opioids for a period of time. So like it is not like people are going and getting high on Suboxone. It's like very much so the opposite. It's not even useful for like pain management. Like sometimes they will do bupinorphine for pain management, but once you pair it with the nlloxxone that you do for suboxone as like a brand name, like you're basically like kind of partial agonist for the opioid receptors, but at the same time you're doing the lockone to make sure that there's no kind of euphoria or like kind of high effect from it at all.

[\[29:57\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2TLB4OIKEY&t=1797s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) I think you're on it. And it hasn't been my experience. I've had experience in methadone clinics as well where the and maybe these are great clinics or whatever, but they're the regimen is paired with counseling that's often required to like continue in their program. And what he's discussing there with compliance issues, it's not an issue of the drug. The drug isn't why people aren't being compliant. It's the situations in which they're living, the access they have to transportation, to funds to get these medications and that kind of stuff that's causing compliance issues. It's not I don't really know where he's going with the compliance issue conversation when he brings it up there as a big issue.

[\[30:43\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2TLB4OIKEY&t=1843s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) You know what would really improve compliance is if we just put up more barriers and we made it \[laughter\] that's like what it seems he seems to be getting at is like oh demonize these clinics like oh who's diverting suboxone like you know people who need to get off opioid like he you know it's like I don't understand much of the argument he's trying to make there or who he's trying to speak to with that. It's not like someone's going and like getting real high on suboxin or something. No, it's just like a funny fear to have. Like why even It seems ignorant to even pick that one to like fearmonger over. Yeah. So throughout this episode, we've discussed a lot of figures in this kind of maha health sphere that demonize experts and evidence-based practice.

[\[31:30\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2TLB4OIKEY&t=1890s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) And Brian Huard has a tendency to do this in his talking points and rhetoric as well. You know, I come out of a blueco collar family and the wisest people I've ever known in my life didn't even have a high school degree and never darkened the door of a college. And I ain't got nothing against people against college degrees. I've got one. But this notion that a person has to have a sheet of paper from a four-year school or some, you know, post-graduate degree or a JD or something else. To be able to speak to what's good and to what's not good and to have a credential in order to have legitimacy is poison. And there's a lot of credentialism in our society where if you don't have this degree from this institution, then you're not even allowed to talk, let alone have an opinion.

[\[32:19\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2TLB4OIKEY&t=1939s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) I think the public health system has a lot of folks like that in it. If you don't have a series of alpha vests beside your name, you're to sit there and listen and not be heard. And you're there to take what is given without question, without challenge because those people have earned their credentials and their credentials make them experts and that's it. And these experts have been trained within an educational process formed in no small part by the influence of the pharmaceutical industry that looks to build value and to build expected long-term return on investment in the creation of that educational infrastructure. Which seems in the minds of these folks to suggest that what we have now is the best we will ever have. and all that we should ever have because it is the best.

[\[33:13\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2TLB4OIKEY&t=1993s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) They engage in this circular reasoning whereby you know you have to prescribe the evidence-based best practice treatment because anything that's not the evidence-based practice treatment is not the evidence-based practice treatment \[laughter\] to which I asked the question. Wow. Yeah, that was a good point. Let's pause. So \[laughter\] instead, what we should be making space for people like Duncan who it feels weird that your baby's getting a temperature in the \[laughter\] hospital? That that's what I was going to actually say is that that like getting back to what Normie said a while back there is a kernel of truth to the fact that like you know sometimes people there's a lot of examples of people not being listened to by their doctors and like where they you know they do have something wrong with them and they're told it's anxiety or whatever else like that that does happen.

[\[34:02\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2TLB4OIKEY&t=2042s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) It is a problem. But the way that it's being described here, it's like laundering the wellnessification of public health and like a vibes-based approach to public health. You know, like I talked about vibes based epistemology and the psychedelic telepathy video. And here it's like, you know, like what I talked about in that conversation is that a lot of what science is about and learning about science and population level data is to understand that there are a lot of cognitive biases and heruristics that can lead our direct perceptions of the world to not be representative of things on a macro scale. that some things can feel via anecdote very persuasive and true without actually being a valid scientific approach to addressing an issue.

[\[34:55\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2TLB4OIKEY&t=2095s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) And so it's like when you are cutting down expertise as such in the public health terrain, you're opening the door for all of this, well, I've experienced it firsthand. I know that it's safe and effective kinds of approaches. It's so weird to be like so dismissive of evidence-based practice. Like it's okay to make a note that like sometimes you should step outside of evidence to try to like explore new routes or you know, but like that is all evidence-based approaches still. Like that's the more evidence that's like what Yeah. That's what science is like. And it's kind of treating it like evidence-based approach means like we've got this capsule of knowledge that we'll never go outside of. and yeah, like we've learned it all and so we know it and there's no need to move forward and that's just not how it's worked like ever.

[\[35:44\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2TLB4OIKEY&t=2144s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) Well, \[laughter\] and this gets back to the RFK connection as well because ultimately this rhetoric is serving as like a battering ram not for populism but for a different pharmaceutical wellness industry to establish to try to establish hijgemony. There are barriers preventing that from happening. And by saying, "Oh, the experts don't know, the experts are corrupt, the experts are killing people," they're actually through the back door of their Trojan horse kind of operation setting up a new financial system behind a different approach to doing things. That's ultimately what's happening here between all of these figures, right? It's so wild that these conversations are happening in the broader context of trying to establish Ibane as a pharmaceutical intervention.

[\[36:32\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2TLB4OIKEY&t=2192s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) He's like demonizing the pharma industry that is one day going to have a pill with a brand name sold by a pharmaceutical company if he has his way. You know, it's not pharma if it's not him though. Yeah, that how could that possibly be pharma? It reminds me there's a chapter in the Li's high priest that I teach in Pace's class every semester where he's he has like an alternate history kind of in the margins of the text of like imagining if the psychedelic people had come into power back then like you know instead of being marginalized that they're like at the center of government and then there's this new upstart electronic brain stimulation people that come in and like they try to suppress that the way that people were trying to suppress the psychedelic people.

[\[37:20\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2TLB4OIKEY&t=2240s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) It's just a matter of like, you know, it's battling over whoever's on top, but they're using these rhetorical kind of like tools to make it seem like it's not just these competing corporate interests. Yeah. And the wider implications of demonizing the evidence-based practice, the experts, is that people without the expertise or the evidence behind them can suggest fairly dangerous options for people to do in underground contexts or putting the cart before the horse and just jumping into these treatments because some people have had good experiences with them in fairly dangerous ways through their rhetoric. The one clip I have here is Brian Hubard basically describing who he says Ibagain is for in this conversation.

[\[38:10\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2TLB4OIKEY&t=2290s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) I'll play that really quick. If at the end and nothing else has worked, I gain is the last best stop you can make before you commit to taking yourself out of this world. So that's the first kind of person that it's for. Like that's without clinical trial, without making it through FDA approval, without experts on board, anything. He's saying that this is the last best approach before you decide to take yourself out of this world. So, so thought experiment, you know, say you're one of these people who is really considering taking yourself out of the world. Nothing else has worked. So, you decide this is the last best approach.

[\[38:56\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2TLB4OIKEY&t=2336s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) I'm happy I get to do this and it doesn't work either and now you're left with nothing else. Like I don't know. There have been examples and like certainly conversation about the fact that people when they're told that something is like their last best shot at getting better and then it doesn't work out for them that can itself lead to suicide or you know other kinds because if people are feel like they're they have no more options, right? And there are always other things that can be tried. You know that it's not like people actually have no other hope after I gain. So it just seems wildly irresponsible to be presenting it in that way. Yeah. Who is he to say that like this is the thing to do like automatically exclude all other potential avenues of help and this is the thing, right?

[\[39:51\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2TLB4OIKEY&t=2391s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) It's ridiculous. And so those are in my opinion some of the broader implications of pushing this without evidence, without expert backing, anything like that. And then I know normie that you've discussed as well some of the broader implications on an environmental level of this rhetoric around Ibagain and pushing drugs before there's any kind of established supply chain or anything like that as well. Yeah, I've spoken to someone who's pretty in deep in the Ibogine space and they were telling me if there's already right now starting to be pressure and issues, social issues, economic issues on the horizon, if I takes off here, that's taken from the IBO route in Gabon and that's a country that is does not have mass agriculture whatsoever and just like any of the any of these other superfood foods or plants that become trendy, drugs that become trendy, they grow somewhere.

[\[40:50\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2TLB4OIKEY&t=2450s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) They're from somewhere. Someone is growing them. And when you start putting a lot of pressure on that supply chain, it's going to cause various issues. These are the issues that no one ever talks about. When Joe Rogan starts pushing ibo gain, he's not thinking whatsoever about like everything surrounding the cultivation and production of ibogga. It's just, oh, this plant it's just going to suddenly materialize into the universe. You know, it's not about the politics or anything else that exists in that world. So, yeah, how I think it's worth thinking about and for other journalists or investigators to look into how some of these dynamics might play out in the present and moving forward. Hey there. Do you appreciate the work we do here at Psymposia? independent research that's been cited in the New York Times, The Guardian, The Nation, Wired, ABC's Four Corners, Business Insider, the CBC, and more.

[\[41:48\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2TLB4OIKEY&t=2508s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) Well, we've just revamped the ways that you can support our work on Patreon, and what we can offer you in return. Starting on July 1st, we're going to be simplifying to two main Patreon tiers, a $5 and a $10 tier. Of course, there is still a $2 tier right now, and if you get in within the next month, you'll be grandfathered in at that level moving forward. but we will be retiring it at the beginning of July. You're also welcome to jump in at the $50 tier, though we don't expect that of everyone. So, what'll you get for supporting us? All of our paid members will receive access to adfree early access podcast episodes released around twice a month. Additionally, these episodes will have about 20 to 45 minutes of bonus content tacked on the end that non-Patreon members will not get to see. All paid members will also be able to access a group chat as well as a chat where you can suggest stories and topics for us to cover in future episodes.

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