> ## Content Index
> Fetch the complete content index at: https://ghost.psymposia.com/llms.txt
> Use this file to discover other available public pages before exploring further.

# It's Not Just Reggie Watts
- URL: https://ghost.psymposia.com/its-not-just-reggie-watts/
- Published: 2026-09-11T12:00:26.000Z
- Updated: 2026-10-01T06:30:51.000Z
- Description: Psymposia dives into the recent Rolling Stone article — "Reggie Watts Is a Prominent Ketamine Advocate. Was It His Ex’s ‘Undoing’?" — and explores how the dynamics at play in that article are pervasive within the psychedelic advocacy scene.
- Author: Mike Elliott
- Tags: Videos, #youtube, #youtube-transcript

Psymposia dives into the recent Rolling Stone article — "Reggie Watts Is a Prominent Ketamine Advocate. Was It His Ex’s ‘Undoing’?" — and explores how the dynamics at play in that article are pervasive within the psychedelic advocacy scene.

Footnotes:

Reggie Watts Is a Prominent Ketamine Advocate. Was It His Ex’s ‘Undoing’? (Rolling Stone): [https://www.rollingstone.com/tv-movies/tv-movie-features/reggie-watts-ketamine-drug-advocate-1235607828/](https://www.rollingstone.com/tv-movies/tv-movie-features/reggie-watts-ketamine-drug-advocate-1235607828/?ref=ghost.psymposia.com)

Ending The Silence Around Psychedelic Therapy Abuse (Mad In America): [https://www.madinamerica.com/2021/09/ending-silence-psychedelic-therapy-abuse/](https://www.madinamerica.com/2021/09/ending-silence-psychedelic-therapy-abuse/?ref=ghost.psymposia.com)

Cover Story: Power Trip (Psymposia): [https://www.psymposia.com/powertrip-2/](https://ghost.psymposia.com/powertrip-2/)

The Psychedelic Syndicate (Psymposia): [https://www.psymposia.com/psychedelic-syndicate-executive-summary-silicon-valley-maps-lykos-mdma-fda-billionaires/index.html](https://ghost.psymposia.com/psychedelic-syndicate-executive-summary-silicon-valley-maps-lykos-mdma-fda-billionaires/)

Inst@guru (Mark Vicente): [https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPsBTnm95WUgWGMKgrERy61LX6GXHgOvm](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPsBTnm95WUgWGMKgrERy61LX6GXHgOvm&ref=ghost.psymposia.com)

## Transcript

*This transcript was generated automatically from YouTube's captions, then cleaned up by removing filler words, repeated words and background sounds. It may still contain errors.*

[\[00:00\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=0s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) I think one of the other reasons to me that this piece resonated with so many people is because like anyone who's banging around in like any sort of psychedelic scene like this type of guy is so common. This isn't like his behaviors are not like some aberration at all. Everybody knows that guy in their circle. I don't know. To me like I know a handful of people like this. Those the people who you stay away from. I've gotten some great messages from people who have psychic connections, too, telling me that Katherine told them to tell me that she's all right. I'm processing, you know, with myself and with other people. But the good thing is I really love myself so much. I have a really great relationship with myself and that is really getting me through right now.

[\[00:50\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=50s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) And I have to say the way that she chose to go was pretty elegant. Notice how much he makes that about himself. Imagine finding out the details of how your sibling died from this guy posting of like this completely public video that you don't know any of these details. And he's laughing. He's saying look, people can do grief in their own ways. I understand that. But like he'sing laughing. He's saying how much he loves himself. like how intentional the her death was, like aesthetically like pleasing it was. Hey everybody, welcome back to the Psymposia podcast.

[\[01:43\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=103s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) I am Normie. Today we are joined by my Psymposia colleagues Nishay, Pace, Mike, and James. Today we're going to be discussing the recent Rolling Stone article by Cheyenne Roundtree about Reggie Watts. The article is titled Reggie Watts is a prominent ketamine advocate. Was it his ex's undoing? Basically, the article is about they Cheyenne reported it was a in-depth investigation. They reported on the death of Reggie Watts's former girlfriend, Katherine Early McCulla, who died by suicide in Peru in March. And their article interviews a bunch of different family and friends, including Watts's former girlfriends. And just to be clear, that Watts denies responsibility for McCulla's death and his attorney disputes the allegations.

[\[02:29\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=149s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) Yeah. And for people unfamiliar with our channel, we are talking about the Reggie Watts Rolling Stone article because this has long been Psymposia's beat. We cover patterns of assault in the psychedelic industry. As mentioned in Cheyenne Roundtree's article, Watts has a public persona as a psychedelic evangelist who's allied with influential people in the psychedelic advocacy space. We have recognized Watts's footprint as he's moved through the psychedelic world as just one of the players in the game. And so we were very interested and of course concerned and shocked as many of you when we read Round Tre's article. So, and when Pace mentions patterns of assault in the psychedelic industry, that really gets at a key reason why we wanted to talk about this article and this topic in particular because many of the patterns that we have been calling attention to over the years are clearly emphasized and contributed to this tragic story.

[\[03:29\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=209s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) So, we felt that unpacking this and having a conversation about it could help act as a case study in order to make people more aware of the need to address these underlying issues. Yeah, I would just add real quick that unfortunately there are many things in the piece that were not shocking to us as they are patterns that we see. The other thing I wanted to point out before we really get into things, the comments that were provided to Rolling Stone were through Watts's attorney, Andrew Breettler. Some of the some of Breler's high-profile clients have included Prince Andrew, Danny Masterson, Army Hammer. So just something to keep in mind while we're discussing this today. The other thing that I wanted to bring up is back in and only Nache and James know this at the moment.

[\[04:17\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=257s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) Maybe you can cue that screenshot James but back in 2015 right after Psymposia got started. We were doing an event psychedelic stories event. There was a thing called 920 at the time throughout the country and we were doing it in Montreal and we were working with some of the people up in Montreal and the Canadian students for sensible drug policy and at the time since 2015 11 years ago at this point at the time Reggie Watts had been like advocating for psychedelics and stuff like that and so we had reached out to him we had we did this small event maybe 75 people in a co-op in Montreal and We were looking for different speakers to share their stories. You know, back at this time it was still as Nehe has written in symposi before coming out of the psychedelic closet was still an issue.

[\[05:08\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=308s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) It was like a thing. So we had reached out to Reggie and his representative at United Talent got back to us and the response was Reggie is not available September 20th. He's possibly available September 19th, although he has some other inquiries for that weekend. Please note that Reggie's fee to come out for an appearance is $35,000\. Plus non-stop first, first class, flights, ground, hotel, Nord Electro, keyboard, backline, any relevant immigration work, permit exemption paperwork. And needless to say, we did not take him up on that offer. Is that normal? Is that like as extreme as it sounds? Yeah, I think I definitely think it's I mean that's the going rate for highprofile speakers.

[\[05:58\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=358s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) Like that's probably what you know most people are going to charge, but like the entire budget of this event was probably $1,000, you know, something like that. If I recall correctly, you know, not in the sort of an entertainment space so much, but in the psychedelic speaker space, I think Michael Pollen doesn't do talks for less than 50K or something like that. It's something like that. It's in that range somewhere there. I just wanted to point that out. We attempted to get in contact with him like over a decade ago at this point. So, we should probably get right into it. Do you guys before we share everything in the various What do you I go around the horn here. What's everybody's like thoughts or you know summary reaction to the piece?

[\[06:44\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=404s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) Before the reaction to the piece, I wanted to clarify another thing just because I know that people may be coming to this video interested in this particular case and trying to understand it better and maybe a bit confused that we're we were in the past trying to you know book Reggie Watts in a promotional capacity. You know, Psymposia as an organization has had quite the arc of being psychedelic advocates and we remain advocates for full drug decriminalization and education around currently scheduled drugs including psychedelics. But it really was as a function of our participation as advocates, we often refer to ourselves as recovering psychedelic cheerleaders, that we became aware of some of these patterns of abuse and control and messianic thinking that are familiar to us in this space.

[\[07:43\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=463s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) And so we've become much more critical. Yeah. Yeah. And for just anybody else that's only got involved or interested in this space over the last few years, 2015 was an entirely different landscape, entirely different world. And so at the time we were doing various psychedelic stories events where we'd get a warehouse, we'd get a small venue and we would have people share their stories. We had some speakers on on different things. we had someone who had been a participant in Rick Straman's psilocybin work a long time ago. We'd have different talks and stuff like that. So yeah, what do you what are your thoughts of the piece before we actually get into it?

[\[08:28\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=508s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) So I mean I'll go ahead and say first off that I have in the past really liked Reggie Watts. I first came to know him through Comedy Bang Bang. I listened to that podcast religiously for many years and he was the he recorded the intro for that in like 2011 and it's always been their intro up until like last week. And I think that's kind of my mentality with Reggie Watts now is I'm like hearing this I have no problem just being like I'm kind of I don't really need to \[expletive\] with this guy anymore. And like I think like my reaction to it was like we've had a lot of practice of having to learn these things about people that we appreciate or even sometimes look up to. And you know, even like before all of this came out, there were times that he was kind of like bowing down to the like corpadelic movement and I already had kind of thought he lost some face in like the psychedelic movement in general

[\[09:30\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=570s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) And then now it's just kind of like, oh, he's also not a good dude. So I think like I really really enjoyed his comedic style. I enjoyed his talent a lot and I think kind of I have no problem ever really going back to it at this point because he like the behavior in the article is just unacceptable for me. Yeah. And I guess the other thing for me was starting and we'll get into this later in the show but starting several years ago he had an increasingly close collaboration doing work with maps and all that too. So that was obviously something that stood out to us over the years. Yeah. And I think like a lot of times like people who are more like they're artists on their own who are also like psychedelic enthusiasts, I don't necessarily I could see them just being like, "Oh, this is like a psychedelic organization."

[\[10:28\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=628s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) Like cool for me to get involved with that and not necessarily being like super plugged in. But I don't think that was ever really the case with him. like I think he kind of has had a pretty good understanding of the psychic industry and I think that that was like the side that he had kind of chosen to be on. Yeah. I think upon seeing this article I was personally pretty unsurprised. I mean I think I've always thought he was like pretty funny. I liked his music generally. wasn't like a fan necessarily, but I remember seeing that pop up and it was a tweet that we that someone sent in and they were talking about like, oh, the whole psychedelic community is going to be losing their minds over this. And I just remember being so much less interested in the like the idea of the article because I'm like, oh, obviously let's talk about why we think that everyone's going to lose their minds instead.

[\[11:21\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=681s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) Which is a shame because, you know, I mean, I think seeing him going to Shogun's Lab with Hamilton Morris and performing at MAPS conferences and personally having seen him at an afterparty really late at a conference just kind of the vibes were already there and like the entourage that he had around him in real life that I was seeing. It's one of those like the power dynamic of the kind of guru status thing and just the fame and sort of you know the how power corrupts was just already kind of there and then upon seeing this article it was just it was sad but it was definitely like well here we go again. Yeah. And I'll just as my like you know ahead of the conversation comments I'll just say I in addition to just run-of-the-mill or like you know everyday life abuse dynamics there is a special flavor of psychedelic abuse and

[\[12:23\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=743s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) Psychedelic specifically psychedelic aspiring psychedelic cult leaders that is I'm very familiar with. I think that that's a dimension of the story that was not fully articulated in the piece itself. But if you're if you know about psychedelic culture guru dynamics, you can see behind the details that that are included there a pattern. And part of the reason that that pattern was so clear to me as I was reading is well a I have had you know I had an exartner who was I had an exartner who was like that who I was involved in these kind of coercive control dynamics with and so it's very familiar to me and the corrosive effects of that on your capacity to consent is very famili familiar to me from my own lived experience but also at the same time I've been listening to a podcast series by Mark Visante who is one of the Nexium cult whistleblowers who used to be a

[\[13:24\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=804s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) Nexium member and he has a series called Instaguru what's his name on Bentino Misaro who I was familiar with for over a decade because Vice put out a video on him as like a cult leader a long time ago and they go through all of the dynamics in a really fine-tuned way the cult dynamics ics and the impact that it has on people and the way that it gets in the way of or the way those dynamics prevent genuine the they corrode the conditions for consent whatsoever for the people who are bound up with them. And so that educational piece on the cult dynamics and how they interface with psychedelics is a huge area where the field needs to become more literate and experienced moving forward so we can help protect our communities against these recurring patterns.

[\[14:14\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=854s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) We should throw that in the show notes, too. Yeah, you know, just basic impressions of the article was that I thought that it's an incredible teaching resource. It is a case study in a lot of the dynamics that we've seen in the psychedelic space but in particular like a window into some of the power dynamics and intimate relationships where you know one partner is extremely wellresourced wealthy connectedworked fame is a role is a factor in Reggie's situation with Katherine and the way that delusion and narcissism and basic like lack of empathy can be repackaged with spiritualizing language or therapizing language really shined in the reporting here.

[\[15:07\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=907s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) And it's so important that people become familiar with these manipulation tactics that we've seen quite a lot because there are a lot of unbounded and frankly unhinged people very familiar with both drugs and therapizing language that are often fooling themselves and everyone around them that they're being, you know, ethical, that they're not abusive, and that they're just basically being a good human in any sort of way. And we have to be able to identify these toxic dynamics to keep people, you know, safe. So that's part of one of the things that we do at Psymposia is point these things out.

[\[15:52\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=952s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) Just one thing to Pace's point that kind of stands out to me was that just speaking of like the tremendous financial imbalance, something that was crazy to me was that she was fundraising for him, like she was investing in like her minimal savings into merch and stuff like that for him. Yeah, there was a lot of toxic and exploitative dynamics that I thought this piece did a very good job of showing before, you know, editorializing on them. I mean, it I think the thing that and we've seen sort of pieces and allegations bubbling up about people in the psychedelic world many many times and sometimes we've been the group breaking them.

[\[16:43\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=1003s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) But what I think is different about this piece and the reaction to it is is that the stories in and of themselves, I think actually in chat or at one point I said if even half of this is true, you know, Reggie Watts is a monster. I think that there's every reason to believe that this is an incredibly well-ressearched article that is providing the this window into this relationship and its exploitative abusive dynamics as a way that people can see it for themselves. people and their opinions of this creator are forever changed because they got a window into his intimate relationship and how he, you know, allegedly treats people.

[\[17:29\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=1049s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) I think one of the other reasons to me that this piece resonated with so many people is because like anyone who's banging around in like any sort of psychedelic scene, like this type of guy is so \[expletive\] common. This isn't like his behaviors are not like some aberration at all. It's just very common dynamics that everybody knows that the guy in their circle who's like \[expletive\] weird, has done too many drugs, is like this isn't I don't know to me like I know a handful of people like this. the people who you stay away from. And the fact this blows my mind. I think it blew our mind in chat that he's 54 years old. Like, buddy. Yeah. No, that was definitely unexpected.

[\[18:15\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=1095s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) I did not realize that. What are you behaving this way at that age for? Like, you haven't It's pathetic. But it is common. And I think that's that was part of my lack of surprise is that just knowing his like demeanor and I mean watching some of the clips of him like in Instagram his like what do you even call it? His video about the suicide of his We're going to get into that. Yeah. Just in general like how normal this is to see is like pretty pathetic. And just knowing that from going to conferences and seeing these like psychedelic heroes and how often this happens in that, you know, sad but like completely unsurprising way. It's not an aberration and it is a huge problem.

[\[19:03\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=1143s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) And not just is it not an aberration, but it's also not an aberration amongst psychedelic therapists and guides specifically. like the people who are entrusted with people at their most vulnerable, many of them exhibit the these patterns of behavior. But maybe we should jump in just so that we can get some like specifics on the table for the discussion. You know, I mean, the piece does a really good job of humanizing Katherine and the community that she was a part of and the people who loved her and how she changed and how her community changed into what seems like a much more Reggie Watts focused show. She dropped out of law school. She, you know, abandoned professional goals and reoriented her life around a love interest who, you know, was polyamorous and did not want to, you know, commit is living a jet set life, chemically altered all the

[\[20:05\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=1205s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) Way through. And you know, there has been an attempt by Watts's representatives to say that, you know, that that that Katherine was not drug naive, but this is not the waters in which most people swim in when it comes to, oh, I went to a festival and I took mushrooms in college or I've tried cocaine once. you know, the circles in which and the frequency and the intensity and the variety of drugs that Reggie Watts was his lifestyle could afford him to maintain and embibe is is just it's a different ballgame. And I thought the article did a good job of pointing this out of sort of painting a guy who, you know, is is having multiple tens of thousands of dollars for a fee to be flown in first class to some city to perform.

[\[21:01\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=1261s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) You know, he's able to show up very late at all the after hours. He's able to be, as the article establishes, a daily ketamine user. Because he's not the sort of person who has to show up, you know, in an office or, you know, be accessible to other people at 8 am. That it's not the life that he lived. And he brought in, you know, people who he's interested in romantically. And this article does a very good job of showing how when those people became inconvenient and no longer compatible with this sort of good time lifestyle, Reggie Watts had no problem dropping those people. And you know, there were accounts of this behavior that were confirmed by multiple former romantic partners of Watts.

[\[21:52\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=1312s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) In particular, there's this quote, "Still five women who previously dated Watts tell Rolling Stone they recognize elements of their own experience and how McCulla's friends describe her relationship with the comedian. Watts' needs prior prioritized over their own, the chipping away at their self-confidence and the prompting to take substances with it." Yeah. And it's just that that the clear patterns across multiple sources is part of why this story stands out. And it's not just about the pattern. I mean, one of the things that I found most interesting about the r like the reason that the so many of the sources were coming forward, the community around Katherine who loved her as Pace was saying and that love is very clear in the piece. They this is not some hit piece. They specifically and I believe them kind of saw this as an important harm reduction intervention.

[\[22:43\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=1363s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) They wanted to warn people about these patterns behind a very public advocate for casual, you know, ketamine use, etc., and the harms that that can cause, not just in his community, but also for the wider public. So, that's an important component to keep in mind. And this wasn't like he was doing this with everybody. There's one part of the article that says if you know it was kind of a thing that Reggie would just materialize if there was some kind of party going on in LA. He was kind of known as that. But yeah, it wasn't just with his girlfriends. There was there's one bit in here about it says highmaintenance creator and actor Ben Sinclair described in a Substack post an alarming incident that demonstrated Watts's glib attitude at a dance party co-hosted by Watts in March where Sinclair continually took ketamine throughout the night.

[\[23:36\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=1416s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) A man wearing a lab coat, Dr. Leo, was scribbled on his jacket and Sharpie offered Watts and Sinclair what they were told were were quaudes. Watts went first, remarking that something tasted off according to Sinclair. Still, Watts offered a generous heap of the powder to Sinclair, who readily accepted. Sinclair said they'd later learned they took a massive amount, a massive dose of OPCE, branded as a significantly more potent version of ketamine with longerlasting effects in a deeper dissociative freefall. I mourned my beautiful brain, Sinclair wrote, describing how he spent the next few hours monitored by friends. When the drug finally wore off, Sinclair said he prodded Watts to reflect with him, realizing they could have easily suffered a fatal overdose. So, it's like this is the guy you don't want to be around doing drugs at all.

[\[24:25\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=1465s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) He's not the guy you want to be doing drugs with, but he's the also the guy that has them. And I think that's an interesting point that they make in the article too about it's the next quote on here and I don't know if it's readily available right now, but it was around this time in May 2023 that malo jumped in bumped into Watts at a party. She commemorated the moment with a text to a friend. That photo was taken by Reggie Watts whose ketamine I was high on. What a life. So that's how they met was just Reggie had had the drugs. I mean, I think one of the things that the article I think does a good job without necessarily explicitly stating it, but it was something that I mentioned in, you know, in chat when we were going through this that, you know, Reggie Watts by all accounts, including his own, is a regular drug user.

[\[25:15\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=1515s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) You know, uses ketamine and psychedelics, uses them at in large doses. He's familiar with being a psychonaut of surfing in his consciousness. And anybody who's taken these drugs and it's part of the guidelines in psychedelic therapy will tell you that there is sort of a fallout for that. There is recovery depending on the drug. Sometimes that's a physical kind of hangover. But you know a person who has the lifestyle and the resources that are available to Reggie Watts it means that some of this fallout is less conspicuous. Right? If a person is doing this deep diving in the neuroscape with whatever combination of drugs they so desire.

[\[26:08\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=1568s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) But they're not expected to be, you know, opening shift the next day. If instead what tomorrow meets is, as described, sleeping in, eating whatever I want, hanging out in a sauna, you know, these are people whose material needs are met. And to then have a person like Reggie Watts saying, I think somewhere in the article he says it quotes Watts as saying, "I'm really good at dosing." you know, having that person be the one who chooses, you know, your adventure is really dangerous because, as the article says in other places, those resources that he provides his partners are entirely conditional on whether or not you're amusing to Mr.

[\[26:56\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=1616s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) Watts. It's worth also saying along those routes, there's this other quote in here. She recalls several instances where Watts had given her too much of a substance, describing him as reckless when it came to dosing. I had so many experiences with him where he would be like, "This is going to be totally fine for you. It feels amazing." Next thing you know, I'm dry heaving on my hands and my knees in a stranger's bathroom. Watts was largely inattentive in those vulnerable moments. Anna says, "It didn't feel like there was a lot of care." She adds, "It was mostly like, damn, that sucks." Which does kind of seem to be his mentality. There's other issues where, you know, there's funerals that he's refusing to go to. I think the quote is, "I don't do grief." Stuff like that. Yeah, that's I was about to talk at the same time as you to point out that exact same quote because not only is he choosing people's adventures for them, but he's not sticking around when those adventures go sideways.

[\[27:49\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=1669s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) Yep. And that quote in particular was from two former girlfriends, not the ex that committed suicide. Correct. Yeah. So again, another example of a pattern. Yeah. And that that's a good segue into briefly touching on the some of the other very concerning accounts from former partners which included things like non-consentual recording of sexual encounters, pressuring partners to drop prescriptions because of how it was supposedly affecting their sex drive. STD STI non-disclosure and also stealththing with condom use which is you know sexual assaults. A lot of consent violations here. Some of these either Watts, you know, didn't respond to or denied having occurred, but there's clearly a pattern here of, you know, consent not being foregrounded or even considered, honestly.

[\[28:40\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=1720s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) True. Unfortunately, this and the thing is to that there's a total acknowledgement. At one point, it says afterward, Claire knew something was wrong. Before I even looked at him, he said, "I'm so sorry. I just had to know how you felt." like, you know, \[expletive\] grimy. Like, that's it's such an abusive excuse me kind of thing. And it's he's saying, "I'm sorry. I just had to feel what it was like inside you in the immediate aftermath of a sexual assault." Like, this is what we're talking about here. This is the sort of individual profiled in here. And there's a reason why he took the lawyer that he took.

[\[29:25\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=1765s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) And I mean, obviously, I'm speculating here, but I think that this piece is so devastating to the public persona of Reggie Watts that we're no longer talking about whether or not he's going to, you know, be invited on some of the pl the stages and places that he's previously attended. This is a man with significant resources who recognize recognizes that he's facing significant legal exposure for multiple civil lawsuits. Yeah. and his response to that previous comment in the article, it says Watts did not respond to Rolling Stones's detailed list of questions regarding his behavior in past relationship relationships, but through an attorney said any suggestion that he recklessly exposed his ex-girlfriends to a sexually transmitted disease was false.

[\[30:14\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=1814s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) His lawyer provided the name of a former girlfriend whom Watts dated in the early 2010s as a character witness, but she declined to be interviewed by phone. In a text message, however, she said, "Reggie is a wonderful, generous, thoughtful person and a dear friend." ignoring the questions, right? I believe I think it's telling they have to go back to somebody for that is all of 15 years ago as a character. It's extremely telling. Yeah. Yeah. I think there there's a clear pattern of just he doesn't give a \[expletive\] attitude throughout the entire piece. Yeah. Well, and I think that the excuse me, the kind of other grotesque element of this article is the idea that McCulla had tried to stop taking drugs or at least slow down and was essentially refused by Watts to do so or if not refused like heavily encouraged not to do so.

[\[31:14\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=1874s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) There's this line here where McCulla was direct about it in a what was this a notes app? Yeah, notes app. And it was entitled reasons I am worried about the manic episode. And she says my partner is not totally supportive of me resting or abstaining from drugs. I feel his judgment and resistance when I abstain or barely partake or want to do more research before partaking because it confronts him with a message about his own drug use that he is not yet ready to receive. She notes that there are absolutely things I do I can do to improve this by asserting stronger boundaries, but I also need his support and understanding. Another one that Watts did not offer a response to. We just need to talk about this in like sane grounded land for a moment because and not no stigma or shade on on people with mental health challenges.

[\[32:07\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=1927s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) That's actually why I'm piping up in the aftermath of an of a manic episode. If anybody is pressuring you to be taking mindaltering drugs, that person is somebody you shouldn't be talking to anymore. Like this is the sort of information where the people who loved this woman who's no longer alive, who had decades of life ahead of her, you know, she was getting really bad advice in terms of how to manage her mental health in the aftermath of an incident that was so concerning that she had to seek medical attention. It was established as a manic episode. And you have your intimate partner saying, "Not only should you not re reduce the frequency, the variety, the dosage of these drugs, you know, but she's not able to exercise the kind of autonomy that that would be in line with

[\[33:08\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=1988s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) Very standard medical advice, you know, don't take those drugs." And what's even worse, they have a quote from one friend who is quoted in the article saying she felt Reggie could not get rid of her fast enough. Fander Slice says he wanted absolutely nothing to do with her the moment she stopped being fun and easygoing and a good vibe to be around. So this is like element of just discarding after destabilizing someone through all this drug use. Just it's not my vibe anymore. and not just destabilizing but also making her dependent on him because there were a few quotes where you know he emphasized that Katherine was essentially his like you know not officially married but virtually like wife and he would provide for her for like the rest of her life and she had nothing to worry about and you know that I think that was part of her walking away from the legal career that she had been working on for so long

[\[34:08\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=2048s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) And you know her whole life became about this person. When someone has been lovebombed and made dependent on someone and then they feel that the drugs are a condition for maintaining intimacy in a context of like intermittent reinforcement of like sometimes I'm like a hot cold dynamic like sometimes I'm close to you and it's amazing and magical and other times like you've done something wrong you're not interesting enough for me I'm going to walk away like that is what is fueling you know why it's like on the surface she's like Yeah, I maybe I should have stronger boundaries here, but there's a bigger picture dynamic that's going on that makes it hard for people to actually be able to assert those boundaries. Yeah, I think it's also important to note here that the article describes Mala's manic episode as drug induced and their friends or a friend said she wouldn't have fried her brain without Watts's

[\[35:08\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=2108s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) Encouragement to take a heavy array of psychedelics and designer drugs in the name of intimacy and enlightenment. So it's not just like and the thing about there's not a ton of wonderful research on like how psychedelics interact with bipolar because it's ethically it's unethical to even test this, right? Like we can pretty much assume and know from just anecdotal evidence and history that it's not uncommon for severe mental illness to be triggered by a psychedelic use. And then when it happens and somebody that you're really close to is basically forcing it upon you, you know, at least coercively like it's about the worst case scenario as I can imagine. Absolutely. I want to just say one thing before, you know, the sort of multid-disiplinary association for this for psychedelic study, we haven't said their full name yet, you know, come into the to the, you know, comments or whatever and say, "Oh, look at Psymposia paring you drug war propaganda."

[\[36:05\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=2165s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) These are basic things that anybody educated on these substances at all needs to be aware of is that the you don't know if you're if you have latency for something like a manic episode or you know if you're in your 20s if do you really know if you have a background family history with schizophrenia. It's certainly possible that these drugs can precipitate a serious mental health problem. And you know that is is by no means a you know an argument for these things to be criminalized. That's is those statements you know and ideas they're not mutually exclusive. We can and should have evidence-based drug education and a culture of harm reduction around drugs without criminalizing or stigmatizing drug users.

[\[36:59\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=2219s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) So, we've done a bit of around the world on this article from a high level, but this article fundamentally was about the tragic consequences of the way that Reggie Watts interacted with Katherine McCulla and the reactions to it are in many ways secondary and definitely downstream of those real facts. But there are consequences when someone like Reggie Watts, who's been out front as an advocate for psychedelics and who has collaborated with some of the advocacy organizations in the psychedelic space, many of them is found to have this impact on another person's life.

[\[37:49\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=2269s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) So I think it's important that we before we transition to just put some of those facts in the foreground and as a timeline kind of leading up to the tragedy there will be important context to keep in mind as we move forward. Watts broke up with Katherine in October 2025 after her manic episode and then they cohabited for a while for a few months until well December is when she moved out and then Reggie covered her rent for a few months and then it was in March when she went to Peru to end her life and then shortly after in April Reggie posted a video that we also wanted to talk about. So she leaves for Peru to take her life and her family doesn't have any idea where she was.

[\[38:41\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=2321s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) Her sister and her friends, she's essentially missing and her sister calls around a little bit and as a last resort, she gets in contact with Reggie Watts. He doesn't know where she is either, but he remembers that he has access to her iCloud account and apparently to like a find my feature. And they end up tracking that to a police station in Lima. And so that's like essentially what is communicated to the sister that they know that she's in Lima. So, the family finds out that the phone is pinging back from Lima and the article quotes her sister Colleen as saying, "I'm thinking, oh god, she's there doing some drug ceremony or something."

[\[39:32\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=2372s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) She contacts the police station in Lima and through a translator, this is according to the article, through a translator, Peruvian authorities relayed that McCulla had been found dead alongside the German man, both dying by suicide. We hadn't mentioned the German man. So just as you he's someone that they was she found on a forum who also wanted to do that. Yeah. And so this is right at the end of March. So the family now knows that she's dead. So fast forward several days until April 1st. And April 1st, Reggie Watts ends up posting on Instagram a couple videos. One of the videos is which had had since been deleted was a video of him talking about her death.

[\[40:23\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=2423s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) We're going to take a look at this video because it's so revealing about how much is concerning with his kind of approach to her death and this whole topic. You know, one of the things that is important in terms of context is, you know, earlier in their relationship, you know, Reggie Watts is essentially says to his partner Katherine when she is grieving that he does not do grief. And we are now seeing how a man who doesn't do grief does grief very publicly. Getting checkup. Yeah, it's been really hard week obviously and yeah, you know, luckily there's a lot of friends and so much love pouring in from everybody all sorts of places and it's incredible to feel that love and I've done some gigs recently and some people ask me, you know, why are you

[\[41:23\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=2483s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) Doing gigs still? But really, it just feels good to do the gigs because I carry Catherine's energy with me and I talk about her a little bit on stage and it feels really good to know that she's with me. And just so you all know, this is an earring that Katherine got me. It's based on I guess myelium spores. It was when she came to visit me in Berlin the very first time and she got to meet all my friends in Berlin and she loved them so much. This is also Katherine's earring too she gave me. So always going to be well she's always going to be with me and I've gotten some great messages from people who have psychic connections too telling me that Catherine told them to tell me that she's all right and that she's okay and however that's received as a comfort and yeah it's really beautiful.

[\[42:17\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=2537s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) And as for myself, I'm processing, you know, with myself and with other people. But the good thing is I really love myself so much. I have a really great relationship with myself. And that is really getting me through right now. A lot of meditation and introspection and of course running through all the thoughts of, you know, could this have happened? Could that have happened to change things? But in the end, it is the way that it is. And I have to say the way that she chose to go was pretty elegant in many ways, at least from my perspective. She was very very intentional about it and she had a partner that she found on a forum and they did this thing together.

[\[43:04\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=2584s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) So she wasn't alone and she had many beautiful moments in Lima by the sea in a sculpture garden, an installation art place and they stayed in a really nice hotel and rented a cute Airbnb and ended things there. And yeah, I've grown to accept that as what she chose and I will honor that. Anyways, thank you so for your continued support and yeah, keep Catherine in your heart. She was amazing. Notice how much he makes that about himself. It was I hate that video so much. In the beginning, he's talking about how good it feels to do gigs for himself. How good it feels. Imagine finding out the details of how your sibling died from this \[expletive\] guy posting like this completely public video that you don't know any of these details and he's laughing.

[\[44:00\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=2640s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) He's saying look people can do grief in their own ways. I understand that. But like he's \[expletive\] laughing. He's saying how much he loves himself. Like how elegant and intentional the her death was. like aesthetically like pleasing it wise, it's \[expletive\] demented. My I just have to say like my heart goes out to the family that nobody should have to find out details about a loved one's death in this manner. But nobody mentioned how \[expletive\] weird it is that he's saying that his multiple psychic friends are saying that that she's all right and okay and therefore it's beautiful. like what a utter break with consensus reality that is on display here and this is a man who's you know wearing these earrings like it's just I'm sorry it makes me upset.

[\[45:02\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=2702s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) I mean, it's a very particular strategy that is it's not just weird, but it is the ways that these psychedelic cult cults recuperate. Absolutely. That could otherwise threaten their worldview. You know, like, oh \[expletive\] someone became destabilized and died. you know that that for someone who's not in the cult, that's an opportunity to reassess if what you're doing actually makes sense or is okay in any way. But when you're in this sort of an ecosystem, you create these escape hatches, these you thought terminating cliches that that excuse you from having to consider details that would otherwise force you to update your underlying assumptions.

[\[45:48\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=2748s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) And we see that again in the description of I've grown to accept that it's what she chose. This came up in our recent episode about Dr. Samuel Lee where you know his community was talking about the fact that the death that occurred is something that was authentically chosen. We see this literally all the time. It came up also in there was a death in the MAPS MDMA PTSD, not the clinical trial of phase 2, but a phase 2 therapist was also treating people in the underground, which was common as we've discussed in other episodes, and there was a suicide there, and the therapist said again, it was intentionally chosen. And it's a way of just kind of continuing on on the same path that people are. That's why cults are fundamentally so dangerous is because they create a self-reinforcing system where there's no opportunity to interrogate the things that you're doing.

[\[46:43\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=2803s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) Yeah. And I just like I think that the grossest I mean the entire videos gross to me, but I think like the things that really gross me out are his justification to not take a break from work. like basically justifying like not actually doing any kind of grieving process and then also the justification of putting material in his act about her and like I don't know like that's something that you like he's announcing that to Normy's point to the family for the first time that like these details about her death and then also being like I've got bits about her in my act and it's like you need to clear that with the family first in my opinion. in and then he like goes on to justify basically why he shouldn't be sad about it by being like you know it was an elegant way to go and she chose it and so like I don't have any reason to Nisha's point to like think critically about this thing that happened because ultimately it was good

[\[47:44\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=2864s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) And I don't know like I just the whole thing is it just gives me like so much gross feelings like I just feel like I need a shower you know there's something in her notes tap that really is a parallel with this video. Katherine was right about her partner. Katherine was right about her partner because she said, "I didn't think, you know, he's supportive of me changing my drug use patterns to not match him." I'm paraphrasing obviously. Because it would force him to consider his own drug use. her suicide is not enough to cause him to consider his behavior, his drug use, his stance, his spiritual worldview in a critical light.

[\[48:31\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=2911s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) She was right. And do we have the other video that the Rolling Stone article talks about cuz they mention another one. I'm just going to kind of read their description of it because it's also pretty grotesque. From a corner of a dark room on April 1st, Watts began recording himself singing a rendition of Blueberry Hill. "Hello and welcome. Tonight is a very special night," Watts began in a faux British accent. He briefly paused, ducking out of the frame as the sound of several loud sniffs and the clinking of a hello hollow metal came off from off camera. When Watts reappeared, he introduced a new piece of music, something he had just written, an abrasive, cacophinous track. Katherine Vibes, Watts captioned the video, "My heart is full for you." I just like Yeah. He's just basically posting a video of him partying \[laughter\] and then being like, "Rip."

[\[49:19\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=2959s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) And I don't know. It's just so gross. Say less, man. Say less. Yeah. Like way less. That might be a good opportunity to move into looking at some of the responses to this piece. In particular I just wanted to note Jules Evans who covers adverse events and harms in the psychedelic industry wrote in ecstatic integration his substack about you know or his substack ecstatic integration two sentences I wanted to read briefly. So the first is that Watts comes across in the article as an immature hedonist who introduced a sweet girl to life in the fast lane then dropped her when she couldn't handle it. And then the second one is hardcore psychonauts like him have little appreciation that they are unusual in their capacity to take so many drugs and experience so few adverse events.

[\[50:08\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=3008s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) But just to connect to what Pace was saying about his own problematic drug use, I don't think that there were no adverse effects of the amount of drugs that he was taking. I think that video is we cannot prove it but I think what we've seen from the you know the effects of taking these kinds of drugs as extensively and chronically as he was clearly doing it can very much blunt your empathy increase your kind of narcissistic tendencies and that sort of thing. So I think it's a completely it's a misread that this is just a kind of fastmoving scene. I think the scene is inherently harmful and it's also it's not about not being able to hang with the pace and the intensity of it.

[\[50:55\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=3055s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) It's abuse that's going on. There's no way to exist in abusive dynamics in a long-term sustainable way. It's not about her capacity to keep up. I mean, that's victim blaming in the most like obvious definition of the term. Totally. And I think it's so telling that the only other people in this field who are talking about ethics and you know adverse effects are not understanding the deeper issues to the story. I think that says a lot about the need for you know a lot about the problems frankly of this entire industry. Yeah. I remember like while we were chatting about this, I shared like an old tweet that captures some of this like, oh, but we didn't see any adverse effects from Reggie Watts.

[\[51:45\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=3105s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) And it's this tweet that somebody says in way back, this is old, but you know, what's considered trashy if you're poor, but classy if you're rich and Twitter account named Cinnamon Apple responds, daydrinking, speaking two languages, hard drugs, tax avoidance. I mean, Reggie Watts was somebody openly talking about being a hard polydrug user. And I mean, hey, he's effectively some kind of a rock star, so that's true to form. But who believes that like rock stars who are rich and wealthy don't have adverse effects from, you know, that lifestyle? It's that's a very weird take. Seems like it's the norm to me. Do we want to bring up some of the I think one of the worst takes we saw.

[\[52:31\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=3151s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) Yeah. Nicollespie. \[laughter\] Yeah, but whi which are we talking about? James new. I knew. Yeah, that's this guy right here. Yeah. So, Nicollespie is the former editor-inchief of Reason magazine. He's the current he's currently an editor there. I thought this was one of the worst takes that's out there. It's like just totally \[expletive\] ignoring everything. He said a reminder that Rolling Stone along with New York Magazine are two of the most reliably anti-drug pubs in the country. If that's your takeaway from this, I don't even like where do you start with this being the takeaway from this like incredibly well investigated piece that just had tons of sources like uncovered like a complete pattern and this is your takeaway?

[\[53:17\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=3197s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) Like it's like a he's \[expletive\] 14 years old. Like your takeaway you're an adult man like and your takeaway is that this was like an anti-drug piece. Well, it's just another it's another thought terminating cliche permission structure for people to just look away and not pay attention to the story. And the fact I mean it's not even true. I mean, Rolling Stone has some of the most like absurd like hype propaganda slop articles in existence. Like it's there's tons of stories that are like really pro psychedelics. So, and it's also I would, you know, say not an accident that New York magazine is the other outlet that's mentioned because the way that Psymposia's ghost like haunts the entire industry with Power Trip coming out through a cover story, Power Trip that Psymposia was involved as a co- producer on through New York Magazine and Vox Media.

[\[54:11\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=3251s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) I've seen him talk at conferences critiquing Psymposia's role in that New York magazine story. So I know that is on his mind here and it just shows how these systems have bu been built up that allow people to not look at the issues. Yeah. I guess according to Nick that any article that is getting like investigating drug abuse or any issues with that is just inherently a prohibitionary like exercise. It's anything inconvenient. Yeah. Yeah. James, do you want to bring up the other screenshot? This is one that Nishay had shared in our group chat that I thought was also revealing like someone posted. It's alarmingly clear based on the response to the Reggie Warts article how many men are more concerned with how society treats ketamine than women.

[\[55:00\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=3300s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) I think that I think it's pretty concise. I mean that that hit me like in the chest like when I saw that because I mean that has been my absolute experience of trying to call attention to these patterns of abuse around the MDMA clinical trials and just seeing how contemptuous people are and how minimizing of rape, sexual assault and the impact of that on people because people want their drugs. Like it's very disturbing to see. Yeah. And so, James, can you bring up the other screenshot? So, when this was all going down in March of this year, MAPS actually launched a they put out a press release of working with Reggie Watts and Hamilton Morris.

[\[55:46\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=3346s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) It says, "Maps in partnership with the Shogun Foundation launches music is the bridge video series. First episode features Reggie Watts and Hamilton Morris. It's basically a collaborative video series with the Shogun Foundation and they go through the Shogun Lab. This maps had been doing stuff with Reggie Watts going back several years now. James, you want to bring up that other Instagram post which is I think from 2024\. maps was I guess this is pre-announcement like two years or a year and a half before the this one I think it's pretty ridiculous set and setting are critical you're putting Reggie Watts's set and this is why you just cannot trust this \[expletive\] organization like they're putting Reggie Watts's face on text that says set and setting are critical factors on your journey exclamation point like get the \[expletive\] out

[\[56:49\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=3409s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) Of here. It's It's just like, "Oh my god, this group." It's like every direction they turn in, they step in \[expletive\] Well, yeah. It's not an accident. It's like they continue to choose to elevate like the worst people who are c who are doing the most harmful things. Like it's consistent. It's not just an accident. And this is also extremely messed up because it's kind of giving people the public the impression that he is this like safe psychedelic like community person which puts other people at risk. 100%. And so going back, I think it was in 2022, James, can you bring that up? This is also another thing that MAPS did with Reggie Watts going back to I think this was in 2022 at the World Science Festival.

[\[57:38\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=3458s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) They did a this video has quite a lot of views on YouTube as well with Rick Doblin and G Dolan. So, he's been around these map circles for quite a bit at this point. I honestly think it's super weird to have Reggie Watts on a panel at the World Science Foundation for well, anything, you know, a festival, excuse me, the World Science Festival for any purpose. What is Reggie Watts a non-ressearcher? I mean, this is what maps this is what maps does, though. This is what maps does. They try to find someone who is a celebrity to push their mission and to bring in the dollars like that is what they do. That is not what is current accepted scientific norms for doing things.

[\[58:26\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=3506s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) And so just going back to the music as a bridge thing, what is it? with the thing that they launched with Reggie Watts, you know, a series of playlists like the, you know, the Reggie Watts curated playlist. I'm sure Spotify is in there somewhere. Yeah, this is what maps released in March of this year. Hello. Oh, can I help you? Just working on some stuff here. You know, you really can't be in here unsupervised. You are. I'm Paul. Paul. Nice to meet you. Yes. But let me escort you out to a safer spot. Gotcha. Okay. Well, well, you might want to take a look at that later. That might I'll be sure to do that. Okay, great. Thanks. You bet. Awesome. This is awesome, though. The equipment and stuff is pretty real looking.

[\[59:15\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=3555s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) Empty. Oh, \[expletive\] Never know. Could be. It's a seal of gas or something. All right, let's get that off the screen. I think the weirdest part of this guy pretty real looking, you know. So Watts's public association with MAPS and as a curator for their music is the bridge project is is notable, but also notable is how leadership at MAPS is responding to this situation, this article. The coverage of somebody that they've collaborated with. If you check on Spotify and on the maps website, Reggie Watts's playlist is is still available. there's no you know attempt to distance in this from this. So Lyanna Galuli is leadership at maps is a current board member former development director and has a sub a substack devoted to this situation.

[\[1:00:09\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=3609s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) I think it's worth taking a look at. Neither spell nor choice as it's titled. And you know, like a lot of writings on some of the stickier and more dark side topics in the psychedelic world, there's quite a bit of recuperation in this piece where, you know, difficult things are spun and blunted so that it doesn't jeopardize the project of maps. So, I actually had someone who works in the psychedelic industry reach out to me to ask about, you know, my perspective on this article because it's getting circulated a lot within the community. And on the community side, especially the like pro cult side of the field, this is being cited as this really enlightened truthtelling, nuanced perspective.

[\[1:01:00\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=3660s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) But from my vantage point, it's actually kind of a case study in how abusers get protected again and again in this industry with the language of new age spirituality, which we've seen again and again, including cases we've covered in like the psychic syndicate with the phase 2 MDMA clinical trial abuse and also Will Hall's experience with the Borzat Aharon Grobbard underground therapy group. And so I thought we could just take a look at a few of the quotes to show to kind of like explain briefly like how this functions as another type of essentially thought terminating cliche that again shuts down any critical thought because it's only in addressing that mechanism that we're actually going to be able to have the conversations that will really address the underlying problems in the field.

[\[1:01:50\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=3710s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) And one of the main issues with the narrative is that it completely glosses over the impacts of the power dynamics and the course of control and the ways that those things like under systematically undermine the capacity to consent by presenting this both sides narrative that this was kind of it flattens the power dynamic. It flattens the consent dynamic and makes it out like this is just people meaning well and an accidentally doing wrong situation. Yeah. Scroll back up, James. Like that quote to me, I don't think this story resolves into a villain and a victim. And I think trying to make it resolve that way is itself part of the problem I want to name.

[\[1:02:38\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=3758s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) What I see is in what I see instead is a set of things that are true all at once. It's like in what other circumstance, like when something happens, when someone like perpetuates an act of violence or something onto somebody else, do you ever say, "Well, you know what? That person just killed that person on the street and everything is true at once." Like, what are we doing? I think we're a good person at heart, you know? Yeah. Like, what are we doing here? I don't I It's such a bizarre framing to me that I might only get into that mindset if the perpetrator was maybe someone that I knew closely and I would be thinking about maybe their own personal life or something like that.

[\[1:03:24\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=3804s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) Does that make any sense? Like if this was a normal circumstance of someone like committing an act of violence on someone else, I would never say, "Oh, that's the serial killer and all the things are true." It's this it's the thought germinating cliche again from maps. It's she is acting as if this could possibly be a dialectic that this person is a good person and an ally and my friend and also did some abuse. But the abuse between the two truths cancels out that dialectic. There is no way that this person is not a victim if he is a villain. And in this case, it's obvious. Yeah. And we see the same dynamic play out in how the field talks about the phase 2 abuse as well because it's like, you know, people will say instead of understanding the horrific consent violations involved in therapy abuse, people will say like, oh well,

[\[1:04:25\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=3865s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) What was the participant's role in that? You know, was that the participant asking for it in some way? Was there some kind of like boundary that that that she didn't maintain? you see this all the time and it's just a form of victim blaming and a refusal to look at the actual who has the power in the situation. Yeah. No, and I think the reasoning for kind of like toning down the villainess of what Watts did is a little weak too. Like this next quote that we have highlighted here, he was reckless with her safety in ways that are documented and specific. He also paid for months of her rent and psychiatric care after they split. Genuine care and genuine abandonment sat inside the same person sometimes in the same week.

[\[1:05:12\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=3912s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) But like he's rich. Like paying for her rent and psychiatric care doesn't affect him at all. It's not going out of his way to do that. Like the way that coercive control and intermittent reinforcement and love bombing work is because there's sometimes positives. It is how abuse is able to function. And so to cite that aspect of abuse as an evidence of complexity that it must not be abuse because look there's some positives you know it's like saying that the priest or the parents like really loved the child you know it's a complete avoidance of the actual situation. I think it's like the only appropriate place for this to be discussed is like from your defense attorney or something \[laughter\] like that. It's like you know convincing other people.

[\[1:05:59\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=3959s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) It's a spin. This is public relations a leader in ethics specifically in partic bio as a systems thinker and an ethicist. Well, and I think that's part of what makes it egregious is because the system that is absent from this particular treatment of the situation with Katherine and Reggie is our economic system. You know, the reality is is that Reggie Watts is a wealthy person, a jetet, you know, celebrity with a lot of means. And in terms of his previous commit to polyamory, you know, keeping his options open, it's often joked these days like, oh, polyamory like or monogamy in this economy.

[\[1:06:56\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=4016s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) Like the idea that monogamy itself is not a economic and financial way of getting through the world. People rely on each other. They rely on their partners. and Reggie has a had had a huge amount of power in his intimate relationships as a result. So that context is completely absent in that, you know, he was in this position of power. Not only is it a question of what Reggie did do to his partner to increase her, you know, decrease her resistance to taking larger and more frequent amounts of drugs following an a manic episode. but also, you know, what he didn't do. Like the reality is is that yes, he paid for a couple of months of rent after, you know, committing to being his her spiritual spouse, but you know, he didn't call in people who might be able to help this person with his vast resources.

[\[1:07:57\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=4077s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) That's not something that comes into this analysis where there is no villain or victim. Reggie Watts had tremendous means And the glaring thing about the Rolling Stones article about the events that transpired that ended in Katherine McCulla's death is that he did not exercise those means. He did not exercise care or empathy or urgency to try and intervene to prevent the death of his former partner. And this next quote is another example of, you know, faux complexity coming up. But I think it's interesting because it's a bit of projection going on from like the cult's perspective. So she's basically describing how they co-created a closed reality with each other.

[\[1:08:47\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=4127s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) So they co-created this closed reality for each other. And she notes that's not unique to fame or detamine. It's what closed systems do. Whether the substance is a drug, an ideology, or another person's total attention. It's part of why her friend's outside perspective, however true, could not fully reach her. She wasn't just intoxicated. She was inside a world with its own physics. Very chatgbt turn of phrase there. But what I wanted to point that out is that's literally what happens with this group. It's like they cannot hear our correct critiques because they exist in this like echo chamber. And so she's citing that unable to see it ironically for herself and then completely missing the actual structural dynamics that have contributed to this issue and that will contribute to other Reggies in the future because they're not being addressed.

[\[1:09:37\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=4177s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) A big reason that this article appeals to so many people in the field is her stance against cancelellization and saying, you know, this is not about cancelling. we need to call in and extend hospitality to people and be empathetic towards people who are causing harm. And I wanted to just unpack this a bit. Does someone else mind reading the quote? I don't want Reggie canceled, though that ship may have already sailed. I want to be specific about why cancellation isn't the answer here because I don't think it's a soft position. I think it's a more demanding one. Casting Reggie out entirely, treating him as a monster rather than someone who did real harm and has real work ahead of him, would let the rest of us off the hook, too. turning a pattern the whole field is swimming in into one man's character flaw we get to disown. It would also foreclose the only thing that might actually change anything.

[\[1:10:22\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=4222s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) Casting people out without any path for return generates shame which blocks growth. Yeah. And so within this closed system of the maps psychedelic cult community that sounds great like we're being super empathetic. We're calling in. We're restoring people. But what's really striking to me is that that stance is selectively extended to always the most charismatic abusers in the community. And I think it's partially because so much of this community is vibes based that they, you know, they resonate. They feel the power. They're like, I like this person. People have been harmed, as I've said in previous talks, they have bad vibes. they must be call calling this situation in and causing it for themselves.

[\[1:11:09\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=4269s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) And what's so striking is that Lyanna in particular is super happy to cancel people like Psymposia like us. People who are trying to draw attention to these patterns. The group the community does not have this super complex let's look at our own shadow. Let's call them in orientation. This we must call in our community and heal our own community. The notion of who is part of the community is the abusers are always part of the community that we have a duty to rehabilitate. And the truth tellers, the inconvenient truth tellers who speak up, whether people like us who are the watchd dogs or the people who are directly harmed. Well, I've been both of those categories. Those people are by virtue of speaking up inconveniently, they're coded as not part of the community.

[\[1:12:00\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=4320s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) They should go elsewhere for their own healing somewhere away from us and allow us to recuperate and rehabilitate the powerful engine that allows our community to continue forward. Real quick, I would also say often it is retconed as those people in fact were never part of our community because if they were they wouldn't be behaving like this. They never got the message. They never were. There was always something wrong with that one. Whereas someone like Reggie, well, I have seen his heart and look what he has done to take him off the board as it were, would do material harm to our relationships, to our profile. And the situation is is slightly different in this case because Reggie Watts is already toxified to the Maps brand.

[\[1:12:48\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=4368s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) And they're, you know, mad obviously, but they can't publicly say, "Oh, you can't do this to Reggie because he's too valuable for what we're doing." After, you know, an outlet like Rolling Stone has already laid his endrails out for all to see. So, it's it is an interesting thing to see how Lyanna is trying to thread that needle because she's writing for multiple audiences here, but she's really mostly writing for the psychedelic community. And how do I as a member of the psychedelic community speak to somebody who has read this article? All right, so just to kind of wrap up that article because the way it ends is almost as bad as the way it began.

[\[1:13:34\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=4414s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) This one right here is pretty rough. Says the people most at risk in stories like this one aren't always reckless. They're often the most sincere people in the room, which is exactly why they need somebody anybody standing partly outside in the shared world with them willing to say that willing to say what they can't yet see. So kind of like another example of the you know he's in the end group so we know his heart. He's actually one of the more sincere people. So he's probably the real victim in all of this and that's why we need to rally behind him. And I want to just kind of talk real quick about the sort of religious dynamic there too because like that is just such a common element of everybody's like horror story of a church that they have is that there was one or two people there who were able to just kind of run things and do whatever they wanted.

[\[1:14:29\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=4469s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) And if you went up against them, you were going against the will of God. And that is like consistently upheld within the church. Sometimes they're the most powerful donors. Sometimes they're like the elders, sometimes you know the preacher, and sometimes a mixture of all three. But ultimately like those dynamics lead to that closed loop system that Nishay was referring to where you know anything that you do either amplifies the fact that this person is in the right either by virtue of you signing off on what they're doing or when you don't sign off on it's proof that you're in the out group and therefore like they're doing the right thing by keeping your group safe. Hey, Russell here. Just interrupting the content briefly to let you know that there are a number of reasons to support Psymposia on Patreon.

[\[1:15:18\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=4518s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) You can join at the five or $10 level, and this is going to help us bring you informed takes on psychedelic and industry news, provide you with original investigative journalism, early access, and bonus content, and also because our houses are falling apart. So, all of your support helps. Let's get back to the show.

[\[1:16:04\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=4564s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) We went way over time. We \[laughter\] went way over time and everybody had to leave me in the shay. So, we're going to wrap up these last couple slides here. Yeah. And the reason we wanted to stick around is because we wanted to show an example of how this pattern is, you know, has popped up other places across the psychedelic industry specifically around I briefly mentioned Will Hall whistleblowing on the center for consciousness medicine with the underground guides France Borzat and Naharon Grossbard. We wrote a lot about this in the psychedelic syndicate reporting, but specifically if you can pull up that Gatherwell quote, their group, so CCM evolved into this other iteration gather run by the daughter of those of Aaron Gard and Franis Bzad. and they have put out these ethic statements really emphasizing their duty to their own community and like the parents specifically and like rehabilitating and not cancelling and

[\[1:17:05\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=4625s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) That sort of thing. And in this quote specifically, they emphasize, "A transformative lens provides opportunity for those harmed to have their voices heard and find healing within their community and for those causing harm to have accountability, support provided, and their own healing addressed. But the way that it's laid out here, it kind of implies that the duty of care is to the abuser within that psychedelic community of practice and that the person who was harmed is not really part of that community and should be supported by their own community. And we can see in this specific case that is what happened. a thesis from 2023 by Mea Evelyn Clancy titled creating greater safety in psychedelic assisted therapy spaces.

[\[1:17:53\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=4673s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) The author describes discussing with one of the interviewees of this like qualitative research discussing the shortfalls of the transformative justice model. Finnegan was peripherilally involved with the TJ transformative justice process that was instigated by the Bay Area psychedelics community in response to the allegations against Grossbard in Borzot which was facilitated by trauma and somatics expert Stacy Haynes. He explained that the local underground community went into a fairly consistent regular process for approximately one year and Gbard and Borat participated but never acknowledged culpability or accountability. Finnegan noted that Will Hall, the man who made the allegations against Grossbard, was never invited into the conversation or process and was instead abandoned by the community.

[\[1:18:42\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=4722s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) Finnegan was surprised to hear Haynes explain that it often takes at least a year to achieve any degree of culpability from perpetrators. And she outlined how long, slow, and difficult it can be to move the process forward. And then the last paragraph there, after a year of little progress, the process ended. Finnegan underlined that community members have confirmed that Grossbart and Borzat are still practicing to this day, although they claim publicly to have stepped away from their practices. Finnegan feels that because neither have taken accountability for their patterns of boundary transgressions and sexual assault, Aaron should lose his license and Borzat, who doesn't have a license, should have her international platform dismantled. So that it just goes to show that this happens again and again. The systems in place, the rhetorical structures that get trotted out provide the cover to not address any of the underlying issues through this like systematic way.

[\[1:19:39\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=4779s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) It has nothing to do with any of the harm. It's a public relations stunt to make the perpetrators look better or to clean up their image. That's it. And in the meantime, everything will just be forgotten, swept under the rug, go away. You know, let Will or whoever it was just disappear, pretend it didn't happen, and let's move on. We have our statements out there that are going to exist on our website that made it look like to everybody else that we were doing something about it. We didn't do anything about it. Every everybody forgot about it. Nothing was solved and the problem is going to happen again. That's my read on it anyways. Yeah. And especially because no one wants to actually change the ways that underground therapy is operating. No one wants to address the underlying dynamics because they believe so strongly that what they're doing is right.

[\[1:20:25\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=4825s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) And so that that's why it's going to continue. Yeah. It's all very depressing. It is. It is depressing. But I mean I am heartened by the fact that a lot of people are starting to catch on. I mean, we've been talking about this dynamic for so many years at this point because we lived it, experienced it firsthand. Many of us encountered it in the wild and it was, you know, a lot of people we became the problem by virtue of talking about it. But now the broader public is reading the story and, you know, the majority of the responses are horrified at what, you know, what this entails. So, I do think, you know, we still have a long road ahead of us in terms of being able to actually resolve and kind of e educate people about what's actually going on here so that we can fix these repeating patterns, these systemic underlying conditions.

[\[1:21:16\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=4876s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) But I am cautiously optimistic that things are moving in the right direction. Yeah, especially if media is going to take it seriously and you know, contrary to what everybody some people like Nicholas or Leiana said that this was just a attempt for Rolling Stone to get clicks. This was an incredibly well researched and written article, investigated article. There was a lot of time that was put into this article. You can tell hunting down all of these sources and it was it seemed like a very complete article to me. I'm curious what ends up happening if any lawsuits are flying after this or what's going to go on. All right, smash cut. We're back. We ran out of time in the episode.

[\[1:22:01\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=4921s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) So, we are rejoined by Mike. It's the next day and the Shay. So, we're just going to end off with a presentation that I gave, a clip from a presentation that I gave at the beginning of last year, so early 2025\. And the reason I wanted to chat about this clip is that it shows all of the same dynamics that we discussed in relation to the Reggie Watts story, which emphasizes how much this isn't about one person, but a ongoing pattern and trend in the field that ultimately needs to be addressed. And so where was this from? It is from University of Ottawa, the Society for the Advancement of Psychedelic Studies. they did a virtual series online and I participated. All right.

[\[1:22:47\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=4967s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) Over and over again it has been the people who cause harm who get the empathy. And when we talk about restorative justice in this field often times it's about a rush to protect the powerful perpetrators at the expense of actually dealing with the systemic drivers of the harms that are happening. It's always about if you're upset about this person, that shows that you are holding on to grievances and you're not about truth and love and forgiveness. And it's a way of bypassing the important, I would argue, work of identifying patterns of behavior that are misuses of power and violations of consent and boundarying those so that the people who have the least power are not continuously thrown into this vortex and chewed up and spit out the other side.

[\[1:23:42\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=5022s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) Yeah. So there are a couple things I wanted to say about this. The first was this talk is actually how I met Nishe, found out about Psymposia at all. And there were just tons of things in that talk that really clicked with me and eventually got me to reach out to Nishay and Syosia. But one thing that Nishay says there is the term bypassing and how you know using these tools as what did you actually say using something as a tool for bypassing or it's a kind of bypassing the way that the field behaves is like a form of bypassing I think yeah exactly so the way that the field behaves is a form of bypassing which is something that I wrote a paper on in my master's program at University of Ottawa too which is about spiritual bypassing and it's interesting to make the connection between the field and individual and like spiritual bypassing between the two.

[\[1:24:39\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=5079s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) So the term spiritual bypassing comes from John Wellwood who was a psychotherapist and Buddhist practitioner and he noticed that people would use spirituality to avoid difficult or painful emotions and challenges and suppress parts of their identity and needs and they stall their emotional development. And he was actually describing himself in his Buddhist practice. He noticed that and then like used this he wrote a couple books on it and then somebody else Robert Masters extended in a book about spiritual bypassing from an individual habit to a cultural pattern. So he actually he goes into the details of like how groups and industries and societies and cultures actually can use spiritual bypassing to do the same thing as an individual, right? like suppress parts of their identity, stall their emotional development, which I think is actually a great kind of point.

[\[1:25:39\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=5139s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) Reggie Watts and this whole entire situation. Reggie Watts is like by every definition spiritual bypassing about this event about his ex. in that video we saw earlier with him, you know, talking about loving himself and going through, you know, talking to the sidekicks and all these things, like he's definitionally doing every checking every box on spiritual bypassing. Then we see the article in response to the Rolling Stone article by Lyanna and she's kind of exhibiting this industry cultural spiritual bypassing a little bit more sophisticated but the justification the lack of accountability and all these things. So I thought it was really interesting to kind of revisit that talk from this lens and just see how kind of spoton you've been you know in this discussion and how it keeps happening.

[\[1:26:31\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=5191s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) Yeah, totally. I don't think I actually realized that you found Psymposia through that panel. Is that what you said? I found you through that. Maybe I knew about Psymposia to some degree before that, but I don't actually really think so. Oh, wow. Yeah. No, I mean it's it was it's definitely something that we the themes discussed there or things that we've been discuss discussing for a long time because we've seen it playing out over and over again and been, you know, subjected to those dynamics. I mean, it struck me how kind of somber and serious I was in that, you know, presentation. And that was in part because that came out right after or I presented right after the New York Times article was published the same month that scapegoed Psymposia for the FDA rejecting MDMA assisted therapy and also that named me 17 times in the article.

[\[1:27:25\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=5245s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) And yeah, just like all the Darvo in the article, all the ways that the people who are trying to speak up about harm are the ones that are framed as the enemy and then everyone is just believing that they're doing that out of some spiritual enlightenment is it's just it's very obvious of a \[laughter\] pattern that needs to be addressed. And one other thing I wanted to say too about just the concept of bypassing this relates so much to psychedelic therapy abuse and specifically the ways that a lot of times people in this community the psychedelic community they take a lot of drugs. They study under elders. They feel that they are sharpening their intuition as a tool to connect to divinity to spiritual reality.

[\[1:28:14\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=5294s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) And then what often happens is that the vibes-based approach to judging, should I spend time with this partner who's struggling? Should I go to this funeral that I'm being asked to go to? If the vibes are off, people are encouraged to interpret that as what's right instead of like pausing to kind of consider what other factors could be going on there. And that that's one of the areas that this field in particular is just, you know, totally unequipped for all of this abuse dynamics that's happening because there's a direct mechanism, I would argue, linking psychedelic phenomenology in the context of this particular culture to that kind of grandiose assessment of one's own capacities to judge reality based on vibes.

[\[1:29:04\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGiQnXUsw0s&t=5344s&ref=ghost.psymposia.com) Yeah. All right, we should wrap it there. I know this was a heavy episode. This is a long episode. Keep an eye on each other out there. If you like this, subscribe and like the video. And the other thing we're going to keep everybody up to date with, we have been working with Mike on relaunching all of our website on everything like that. So, there's going to be some new options coming out on our site pretty soon. Complete like much needed overdue over overhaul of everything. So, we'll keep everybody up to date about that. But yeah, thanks for listening and we'll see everybody soon.